The LNER Encyclopedia

Daft question but what carriage livery would Peppercorn have settled upon if Nationalisation had not come along. Thompson painted his carriages to match Gresleys varnished stock so they matched. But as time went on with more steel sided stock being built to replace teak stock how long would this have lasted? Would the livery that they painted the Tyneside electric stock and the six Shenfield EMUs(BR class 306) delivered before the war have been used. This was Marlborough blue lower body and cream upper separated by a black stripe. The roof was Quaker grey. I am sure I have read somewhere that this was to be the case but can't remember where I read it! Anybody have any thoughts?

It's unknowable, if we are honest. But a business with a track record of painting steam locos and stock in shades of pale grey has something behind it to suggest that future liveries could have been very adventurous, rather than the 'let's be dull and corporate' that we actually saw.

A totally hypothetical question but one that merits some speculation.

First it would not have been Peppercorn's choice but ultimately the Board's, influenced perhaps by the CME and Chairman. As was previous custom and practice, continued by the nascent Railway Executive, a 'beauty parade' would have been held showing various liveries for locomotives and coaching stock.

Second and important is that post-war there was a dearth of staff for many duties, not least cleaners, so that would factor in any decision.

Third blues would be an unlikely choice for practical reasons; blue goes fugitive (fades) quite quickly, think of the British Rail Blue/Grey livery.

Fourth would be the other factors such as the available range of colours in more modern paint compounds, suitability for spray painting, durability (see above) especially of colour retention and with increased mechanical washing.

Fifth would be the problem of the existing teak coaching stock, where the paint did not hold well due to the natural oils in the wood which was why varnish was the finish. As turned out under BR, the Gresley coaching stock had a much longer life than might have been anticipated c1950 and equalled if not exceeded the life of the Thompson types.

So would the Board bite the bullet and go for a complete contrast, or for a scheme that would complement the earlier style?

Thanks for the replies both of you. In reply to you 65447, I agree with your first point, I am sure they would have tried various liveries to gauge opinion. On your second point I have to disagree to some extent. The LNER did have carriage washing plants at its larger carriage depots. There was one at York Clifton carriage sidings. So more mechanical plants would probably have been installed in the same way as coaling plants. On point three I also disagree, they already had Blue and Cream as stated in my post. This was first used in 1938/39 on the six Shenfield EMUs delivered before the the war. In 1941 the entire Tyneside EMU fleet was painted this livery and it lasted well into the 50s. It was supposed to be less visible to the lufftwaffe. Point five yes as already stated above but a couple of spray coats of varnish help to protect the colour. It would also be quicker to shop a carriage and reapply another coat of varnish. Was it down with sugar soap and rubb any bad areas down and touch up. Much the same as was done with teak stock. Especially if a spray coat was applied. Point five totally agree, there were some tatty gresleys around.

How about green and cream, as for the 1930s Tourist stock and (most) of the railcars?

That's another potential livery option.

Does anyone have any authoritative source for the oft-repeated tale that the livery change of the Tyneside electrics was to make them less visible from the air? If this really was the intention a far more sensible choice would have been the so-called 'teak' paint standard on older coaching stock - it had after all been the LNER livery of the ex-NER electrics.

That would be an interesting fact to find the truth about this one. The thing is that the livery chosen had already been used in 1938/39 as previously stated. So was the livery change planned anyway as this was the new livery for EMUs? Then war was declared and it was postponed until 1941. The worst of the blitz was over by early 1941 so was it an excuse to get the repaint past the powers that be in the same way the S.R did with the Bullied Pacific.

re: the LNER Shenfield units being painted in LNER blue / grey livery, some years ago I read something about some minor damage to one of the first coaches to be built which necessitated a visit to the paintshop, and when the paintwork in the affected area was being rubbed down prior to painting it was found that the BR green had indeed been painted over the LNER blue livery. What a shame that no photographic evidence exists that shows this.

re: the comment on this page that the LNER Tyneside units were later painted Marlborough blue (below the waist) and cream (above the waist), the RCTS (Railway Correspondence & Travel Society) book 'Locomotives of the LNER' part 10B (Railcars and Electric Stock) states that the 1941 livery was Marlborough blue* and Quaker grey above the waist. This is on page 128.

*The book does not state which part of the train was painted Marlborough blue, nor where 'above the waist' was painted grey, instead it references a page which had a monochrome photograph showing a train in this livery. Also omitted is any reference to a third colour (ie: cream). I'm modelling some trains in this livery and now think that I will need to strip off the paint above the waist and re-paint in a different colour.

What remains a mystery is the correct shade of cream'? Was it the same as seen on Tyne & Wear Metrocar No.4027 when it wore an approximation of North Eastern Railway electric livery? This is much more like ivory white than yellowish cream.

re: my previous message, I have come across a very good colour photograph of the LNER articulated units at Newcastle Central, and it includes a blue / ivory cream unit with LNER fisheye logo. This means that I now have the information that I was looking for.

Apologies but I cannot share it here as I'm not sure of its copyright status.

Further to my previous message, there are two excellent photographs in the book by Graeme Gleaves called "North Eastern Electric Stock 1904 - 2020, although one of them has a blue colour cast and the two photographs show somewhat different shades of blue. For the record I am using Garter blue.

Simon

I have recently come across some diagrams of two 1937 Tyneside Electric carriages and these offer (yet again) different livery variations.

The livery below the waistline is quoted as Garter Blue but above the waist line it is stated to be Quaker Grey - something that a colour photograph which I've seen does not support. In addition, the roof underframes (etc) and the inner end of the carriages (ie: above the shared bogie) are all stated to be black.

The two drawings which I've seen list all available diagrams, of which there are 6 ... P201H - P206H.

In addition, the side elevation shows the outline of the various components fitted to the underframe.


I cannot quite read the name of the person who created these drawings - it looks like John E Bkinley, of *High Street Southend-On-Sea, Essex.

*) The property / building number is unreadable.

spsmiler wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 12:47 am it looks like John E Bkinley, of *High Street Southend-On-Sea, Essex.

*) The property / building number is unreadable.

Sounds like John Skinley.

I understand that you have to be wary of them as there are some discrepancies.
https://hmrs.org.uk/the-skinley-catalog ... wings.html

Dave S wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:37 am
Sounds like John Skinley.

I understand that you have to be wary of them as there are some discrepancies.
https://hmrs.org.uk/the-skinley-catalog ... wings.html

Thank you Dave S.

Yes I know about discrepancies, I fell victim to them by buying the wrong colour spray paints for my 00 scale models of the Tyneside Electrics trains (Marlborough Blue instead of Garter Blue and Quaker Grey instead of cream), as mentioned in previous messages of mine in this thread. I trusted what I would have expected to be authoritative sources of information published by leading transport publishers (two books by two different publishers).

It's a case of what knowledge is available at the time, like all these things. These days we're thoroughly spoilt by the Internet, although there's as much duff information on that as anywhere else. At least it's readily to hand and you can filter through what you think is reliable and what is not.

To my knowledge the authoritative work on LNER liveries of all sorts is still the Brian Haresnape book from about 1980.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Railway-Liveri ... 0711013462