The LNER Encyclopedia

Hi,
Me again.
I’m building a GER section 52’ 6” 7 compartment 3rd from Kirk components. I’ve opted for a late build D141 with angle trussing. My question is does the coach have battery boxes both sides? My Campling reference shows only full side views so I can’t be sure. A second query if I may, is the truss layout the same size as the full brake as NC only shows the earlier rod bracing?
Thanks as always for any guidance.
Stay safe
Bob

The angle truss dimensions were standardised for each overall frame length, so the dimensions off the 52'6" BG will be fine. (I am sure someone will be able to identify any exceptions!)

Battery boxes generally one side only, but I would like to know more about exceptions and alternative arrangements.

(Side note: has anyone found a good method for rebinding their original Campling/Jenkinson carriage drawings assemblage, after the original plastic 'clip in hinge doo-dad' has terminally disintegrated?)

Thanks for that, the question now is were the boxes on the corridor side or the other. Good luck with your rebinding project, my reference book is hard bound and happily hanging together. It does get read a lot!
Bob

My understanding was that battery boxes were both sides for passenger vehicles until the development of the regulator box allowed the same pair of batteries to be charged and used at the same time (previously one set would be on charge while the other was in use). This was at the end of Gresley's tenure and into Thompson's.

There's been some debate about whether any were retrofitted and had a battery box removed but popular opinion seems to be that this was very rare if it ever happened.

Does anyone have the Isinglass drawing for these vehicles?

Hi Jonathan
Good to hear from you.it would seem there’s some divergence of opinion, hopefully someone will add that casting vote. Yes Isinglass could doubtlessly provide the answer but mail to here is taking 9 weeks and the Customs are particularly unhelpful. Hopefully someone here will provide the answer.
Bob

Evening Bob,

Good to hear from you too. I hope you and your good lady are both well.

Harris, LNER Standard Gresley Carriages, page 77. Photographic proof of a 1934 build with truss underframe and two battery boxes. On page 38 there’s a D186 TO from the same year with angle underframe and two battery boxes apparent. I think the move to regulator boxes was after maybe 1935?

Thanks for that, 2 boxes it is then.
I don’t have that Harris book and for my meagre output of coaches I can’t justify the pricey offerings from specialist retailers.
Take care everyone
Bob

jwealleans wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:03 pm Evening Bob,

Good to hear from you too. I hope you and your good lady are both well.

Harris, LNER Standard Gresley Carriages, page 77. Photographic proof of a 1934 build with truss underframe and two battery boxes. On page 38 there’s a D186 TO from the same year with angle underframe and two battery boxes apparent. I think the move to regulator boxes was after maybe 1935?

I've not seen any real world evidence of any pre-war carriage having a single battery system, TTO 56856 built by Met Camm in 1938 still retained both battery boxes when we acquired it. Carriages fitted with pressure ventilation may have had non standard battery boxes. 1729 although not visible still has two complete batteries, these are in two half length double width boxes.
Post war carriages are all single battery with regulated dynamos.

Sawdust.

I think it is partly to do with the electrical system. Stone's system used two battery boxes but Vicker's (I believe) only used one as evidenced by a number of non-vestibuled vehicles fitted with that system from 1934.

I should also point out that both 51'0" and 52'6" vehicles have no visible vacuum reservoir.

Hatfield Shed wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:27 pm(Side note: has anyone found a good method for rebinding their original Campling/Jenkinson carriage drawings assemblage, after the original plastic 'clip in hinge doo-dad' has terminally disintegrated?)

Apologies for going off topic, but to answer Hatfield's question.

Cable ties, 3 or 4 through the slots should be sufficient. Not pretty but effective.

Alan

Most informative about the charging arrangements, and the two battery assemblies in consequence, not something I recall reading about previously, thanks to those contributing. So, lots of additional detail to add to my kitbuilds...

Seagull wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:24 pm ...Cable ties, 3 or 4 through the slots should be sufficient. Not pretty but effective.

Cheap, simple and effective; that's the ticket. Thanks.

Hatfield Shed wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:27 pm The angle truss dimensions were standardised for each overall frame length, so the dimensions off the 52'6" BG will be fine. (I am sure someone will be able to identify any exceptions!

The dimensions when viewed from the side remained generally the same but the cross-bracing could differ in arrangement between rivetted and welded versions. Not necessarily well-known, but rivetted underframes continued to be produced through to the last carriages constructed for the LNER in the early 1950s; BRCW was one contractor that continued with rivetting rather than welding underframes.

A rivetted 52' 6" underframe drawing is that included in Harris' Gresley's Coaches p72 and LNER Carriages p35, both incorrectly described as a 51' underframe, and taken from Norman Newsome's Paper given to the Inst. Loco. E. An extract is reproduced below.
Note the different arrangement of the diagonal angle trussing where it is folded horizontal at the lower end and sits on the lower transverse angle truss for rivetting. On the welded version the diagonal angle trussing sits above the longitudinal and transverse trusses. There is a good view of the welded type on p87 and the rivetted variant in the lower image on p109 of LNER Carriages.

This thread is heading in 3 different directions now, but to get back to battery boxes:

I think it is partly to do with the electrical system. Stone's system used two battery boxes but Vicker's (I believe) only used one as evidenced by a number of non-vestibuled vehicles fitted with that system from 1934.

Mike and I conversed on RMWeb about this when I was building a pair of D210 twin CL-BTs. That was where I got 1935 from as that was the year they were first built.

I don't have a conclusive prewar photo, but post war they had one pair of batteries and a regulator box. On the already stated assumption that there were no known retrospective conversions, that's the earliest example of the use of the regulator box I know of.

jwealleans wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:30 pm This thread is heading in 3 different directions now, but to get back to battery boxes.

And if so were there not two different designs of battery box?

Some very useful info surfacing here, especially the thumb nail of the truss X section. Thank you all for your assistance.
Bob