Turning brake coaches? West Riding Pullman questions...

[nutford]

Further to my efforts to model Ripon, I wanted to have the West Riding Pullman train.

No, I am not going to ask about the formation. Several threads on that, all get tangled sooner or later with West Riding Ltd, Yorkshire Pullman, Sheffield Pullman etc.... so unless you happen to have 100% guaranteed evidence of the formation as it went through Ripon in 1930-ish we'll just leave that! My query here is about turning the brake.

I believe that through Ripon it was 5 coaches. Ken Hoole listed a spotters diary for June 1931 stating that: and the NE area carriage roster for 1932 confirms that; the latter also shows it as a Brake 3rd, 2 Kitchen 1sts; and 2 kitchen 3rds. Which struck me as odd, as without a brake on each end they would presumably have to turn the brake at each end of the run (Newcastle and Kings X), these being all Pullman coaches (and not full brakes). Was this common? Or am I missing something?

Oh - two other questions. I have read that this train was worked by LNER C1's (GN engines). But was this the same as the Queen of Scots - which was worked by C1s UP TO Harrogate, then ex NER locos? And if anyone can confirm whether this train STOPPED at Ripon I'd be grateful. It went through for sure - I have pics of it. And it's predecessor, the Harrogate Pullman, definitely stopped there.
Thanks!

[nutford]

For anyone interested in the same things - the answer (sort of) to some of my questions.

The leaflets below are dated May 1928 (when it ran only up to Harrogate) and (I think) September 1929, the latter with the West Riding Pullman now running north of Harrogate to Newcastle. And confirms it did stop at Ripon.

Sorry those are the best versions of those images I can find.

And have also realised there is a turning loop at Newcastle. So maybe just 'did the C1s go beyond Harrogate' .....

[4812]

The Pullman company's 'The Golden Way' for July - September 1931 shows that the Down weekday "West Riding Pullman Train" did serve Ripon, but didn't stop. There is a Note saying: "Passengers for Ripon change at Harrogate and travel by local train from Harrogate to Ripon", and he Ripon arrival is 35 minutes after arrival at Harrogate and only 13 before the train reached Darlington. Coming Up, there is no Note against Ripon, and the time quoted - 34 minutes after Darlington and 22 before Harrogate - indicates that there was a stop.

[nutford]

The Pullman company's 'The Golden Way' for July - September 1931 shows that the Down weekday "West Riding Pullman Train" did serve Ripon, but didn't stop. There is a Note saying: "Passengers for Ripon change at Harrogate and travel by local train from Harrogate to Ripon", and he Ripon arrival is 35 minutes after arrival at Harrogate and only 13 before the train reached Darlington. Coming Up, there is no Note against Ripon, and the time quoted - 34 minutes after Darlington and 22 before Harrogate - indicates that there was a stop.

Ah - thanks for that. I've tried but failed to read that 1929 pamphlet to see if that is the same.
Looks like I may have to run it the opposite way round to planned if I want to stop it......

That arrangement for Ripon sounds a bit like a Ryanair flight...... 'Fly direct to Paris - via bus from Calais' maybe......

Just when you think you've solved something....!

[Hatfield Shed]

...That arrangement for Ripon sounds a bit like a Ryanair flight...... 'Fly direct to Paris - via bus from Calais' maybe...

Except that the Pullman car steward would have approached you nearing Harrogate to say 'Sir, unfortunately you must leave us here for your onward connection to Ripon'. (The asymmetry is peculiar. Perhaps there was no service Ripon - Harrogate remotely suitable for joining the up Pullman at Harrogate, so perforce a stop had to be made at Ripon?

[nutford]

...That arrangement for Ripon sounds a bit like a Ryanair flight...... 'Fly direct to Paris - via bus from Calais' maybe...

Except that the Pullman car steward would have approached you nearing Harrogate to say 'Sir, unfortunately you must leave us here for your onward connection to Ripon'. (The asymmetry is peculiar. Perhaps there was no service Ripon - Harrogate remotely suitable for joining the up Pullman at Harrogate, so perforce a stop had to be made at Ripon?

I think you're probably right about the odd arrangement.

Had it been Ryanair, they would probably have noticed there were lots of other trains and just left the thing at Kings X.... And...
'Sir, unfortunately you must leave us here for your onward connection to Ripon'. Well yep, or maybe 'Our drivers are all on strike but don't worry, there's a chappy who normally works the yard crane says he'll take it up to Newcastle'.......

[john coffin]

Most "normal" express trains on LNER and certainly before on GNR had brakes at each end, so there would have been no need
for turning the carriage. The might be full brakes/luggage brakes, or compartment brakes.

Since the Pullmans did not have immediate return journeys when they arrived at either terminus, wonder whether they were
just re-shunted once in carriage sidings.?

Paul

[nutford]

Most "normal" express trains on LNER and certainly before on GNR had brakes at each end, so there would have been no need
for turning the carriage. The might be full brakes/luggage brakes, or compartment brakes.

Since the Pullmans did not have immediate return journeys when they arrived at either terminus, wonder whether they were
just re-shunted once in carriage sidings.?

Paul

Paul - I agree entirely.

However I think there was a shortage of Pullman brakes. The train started with two, but one went on the Halifax section.
They couldn't just have shunted the train and repositioned the brake - it would be the wrong way round, with the parlour separated from the kitchen. But by using the high-level bridge at Newcastle trains could - and still on occasion do - loop round. Unless the carriage roster is wrong - which is possible but unlikely - then in 1932 at least there was only one brake rostered to the Newcastle portion.

It begs the question of what happened back at Kings X. But maybe there was a similar solution, or some other movement allowed brakes to be swapped.

The pic below is of the WRP in 1934 - with the Halifax portion still attached on the end - and clearly there is no brake at or near the front of the train.

[jwealleans]

The comment about a shortage of Pullman brakes is certainly true. There are a number of published photographs - some on Steve Banks website - showing ordinary BGs in use when a Pullman brake must have been unavailable.

[JonBates]

The spotters diary for Thursday 25th June 1931 is in volume 1 of Railways Around Harrogate.
The book is well worth it for this one page alone in my opinion. Along with the times it gives the number of carriages or wagons and the class and number of the locomotive.


According to this the up WRP at 10:38 had 5 carriages hauled by C7 2196.

The down WRP at 21:05 had 5 carriages hauled by A1 2577 Night Hawk.

Hope this is useful.

[JonBates]

The other thing that I meant to say was that all the Locomotives recorded on the day were ex-NER apart from classes J39, D49 and A1. No record of C1’s I’m afraid.
From my own researches I seem to recall mention C1 class occasionally deputised for ex-NER types north of Leeds - not that I can remember where I read that.

Jon

[nutford]

Jon - indeed I have that book, and that diary is excellent info as you say.

Love to find a C1 north of Leeds - I have the NRM/Locomotion model, but not sure I can justify it.

I do however also have a C2 (Not an NER loco but definitely WAS used on that line) and a C7, both kit-built and very fine models but not, I hasten to add, made by me! Although I did acquire them for about two-thirds the price of the parts - ebay can be a cruel place

At least one C1 WAS stabled at York - but my understanding is to work trains down to Kings X.

[JASd17]

I think Heaton/Gateshead A1s were regular performers on the Pullmans North of Leeds. They worked into Leeds Central, well before regular Pacific workings from the south.

Still a question, to me, the date of Pacifics working into Leeds from the south, regularly.(?)

GN C1s went south from Leeds. And had specific links.

John

[Danby Wiske]

The pic below is of the WRP in 1934 - with the Halifax portion still attached on the end - and clearly there is no brake at or near the front of the train.

But the train would then have reversed at Leeds Central, so the Newcastle brake could have ended up at the front. What we now need is a photo of the train taken somewhere north of Leeds...

(On another note - I've definitely seen a photo of a C1 at Harrogate in the 30s, but whether they got as far as Ripon is another question!)

[nutford]

The pic below is of the WRP in 1934 - with the Halifax portion still attached on the end - and clearly there is no brake at or near the front of the train.

But the train would then have reversed at Leeds Central, so the Newcastle brake could have ended up at the front. What we now need is a photo of the train taken somewhere north of Leeds...

(On another note - I've definitely seen a photo of a C1 at Harrogate in the 30s, but whether they got as far as Ripon is another question!)

Yes indeed, but it tells us a few things; That train DID run, in places at least, without a brake at each end. And it is a 7-car train, so the Halifax portion is attached, AND must be at the rear of the train as I am near-certain that portion was 2 car, and included at least one 12-wheel brake. Neither of the first 2 cars are brakes.

If the train is heading north, when it drops off the 2 rear coaches there is no way there can be a brake at the front on its way to Newcastle - which would substantiate the Carriage Roster of just one brake.

If the train is heading south, then the Halifax portion cannot have been re-attached at the front (no brake) so must be at the rear; so the train has come down from Newcastle again with just one brake.

Corrections to my logic very welcome! But to my eye that pic does add weight to the carriage roster, and suggests that the train must have gone round the loop at Newcastle - (it's only a 5 minute trip).

Of course we must bear in mind some different dates here; my carriage roster is 1932, that pic (supposedly) 1934. But I have no reason to believe there was any substantial change - until the train became the Yorkshire Pullman in 1935.