G.N.R. Stirling 174 class large 0-6-0.

[Atlantic 3279]

My I pose a question please for those with an interest in the predecessors of the L.N.E.R? Norman Groves' books on Great Northern locomotive history contain a single photograph of one of these six locomotives, showing the right side of 145. I find the caption a little misleading, as it may be taken to indicate that the locomotive is in original condition, yet details in the accompanying text suggest that the sandboxes are in their later positions and the livery appears to be the well-known lighter green that the G.N.R. did not introduce until a few years after the building of these engines. The same photograph appears in the relevant issue of Locomotives Illustrated. Is there only one known photograph of these few large 0-6-0s, or can anybody point me towards any other? Have any original drawings survived purges of old paperwork at Doncaster? It is of course possible to deduce the way in which even later modifications (such as the luxury of loco brakes!) may have looked and the likely appearance of the left side of one of these locos based on general symmetry and on the relatively plentiful photographs of the smaller, standard 171 series 0-6-0s of the same era, but it would be interesting to see some sort of confirmation of details.

This does not necessarily mean I'm going to build a model of one of these any time soon. I'm still mindful of the un-answerable questions that were posed by my attempts to build a 12 wheeled clerestory-roofed East Coast restaurant car.

[Hatfield Shed]

Who could not be interested, for the LNER was in many respects the GNR writ large. (The 174 class a repeat of the Sturrock steam tender episode and a foretaste of the later Gresley P1, super heavy goods locomotives that could not be fully exploited due to prevailing operational limitations.)

There is a side elevation sketch (no engine brakes!) and selected dimensions in GF Bird's survey 'Locomotives of the GNR': p56 in the revised reissue of 2013, from Amberley Publishing. Big 0-6-0, 17' 7" coupled wheelbase...

[Atlantic 3279]

Thanks, your remarks on the locos partly account for my interest. I find there is also hope of a works drawing. Page 366 of the NRM on-line list of Doncaster works loco drawings includes P20A, which appears from the notes to relate to the correct batch of six locos.

P 20A, Series P: Generals, goods. GNR 6-wheels coupled goods engine, Date xx/xx/1871, Box No 124, Condition 2,
Cylinder 19 x 28 wheels, 5' diam; nos
174 - 376, 158, 145-6, 164; Doncaster,
scale 1 = 1'

[Atlantic 3279]

I've ordered a cheap-ish copy of the Bird book in case the drawing in there is enough to save me a special trip to the NRM or a rather large fee for a print by post of the works drawing. Not a bad idea to have the Bird book anyway, even if Groves does identify fault with it in various places.

[john coffin]

Graeme,
best advice for dwgs from York, is to get a dvd copy, and find a local house to print it.

I will see what relevant data I have to hand. But don't forget they were withdrawn in 1902-06, and the numbers were then
used on another class of Stirling locos, which I need to check, so not sure they would fit in at Grantham in your time scale.

Paul

[kimballthurlow]

According to Bird 1910 Edition, No. 164 was broken up in 1901.
Bird also shows numbers 145 and 146 were re-allocated in 1906 to YT classes (0-8-2T condensing) Doncaster Works numbers 1127 and 1128.
The fate of the remaining 3 cannot be gleaned from that book.

Kimball

[john coffin]

meant to say Ivatt,

Paul

[Atlantic 3279]

Certainly not a legitimate type of loco for 1938-ish Grantham, as Groves gives last withdrawal date as 1906, but for use at home on an artistic interpretation of Bardney on the Lincs loop line, admittedly at the wrong date but with rule No1 in operation, it might happen one day......

[Hatfield Shed]

For all that the modelling is officially between this start date and that end date, I like trains. A few samples from before and after the specified period are going to be sneaked in. Every time I look at the picture of the 0-8-0T that Sturrock had supplied by Avonside, it's mighty charms call to me...

[Atlantic 3279]

I'm dredging this thread up again because I recently bit the bullet and paid for a scan of the NRM Doncaster drawing of this loco, which turns out to be a coloured example. The drawing, dated 1871 so perhaps showing the original form, or the original intention, certainly fills in a lot of gaps in the published dimensions for the loco. It also helps one to understand which parts of the reversing gear and motion are seen adjoining, and through the cut-out in the frames between the leading two wheel sets in the previously mentioned photograph of No 145.
Another curiosity arises too, as I'm fairly convinced that the photograph (which appears to show 1880s or later condition, even if captioned "as built at Doncaster in 1873") features a typical vertical front plate for the smokebox, as did Bird's basic drawing, whereas the Doncaster drawing shows a sloping smokebox front, more or less matching the inclination of the cylinders, although nobody would have been able to see the cylinder inclination from normal viewing positions, rendering any cosmetic harmonisation fairly pointless...

[john coffin]

Interesting Graeme, I have looked for that drawing for some time, and did not find it, any reference?

I have looked at all the drawings I have many from a similar time, and NONE of them have a Crewe Type
smokebox front shape, so I wonder if it was but one of many thoughts proposed at that time.
No pictures subsequently show a sloped front either, so go for the flat face, who will know??

Paul

[Atlantic 3279]

Drwg P20A on page 15 of this "list 2", here;

https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/sites/ ... st%202.pdf

[john coffin]

thanks, useful, and different from the last one i downloaded.

Paul

[Atlantic 3279]

I thought the arrangement of the list or lists had altered since I last looked in 2019 too.

[john coffin]

I seem to remember that there was a drawing in the 70's in Railway Modeller of this loco
I cant seem to find it at the moment. Does this show that feature it would be a guide.


Paul