4472 100mph run

[chrissheldrake]

Can anyone help me with the details of the composition of the six coach train on the 100mph record run made by 4472 on 30th November 1934 ?

Reading through other posts here it is suggested that the famous Dynamometer carriage may not have been included which seems somewhat surprising. If this is the case, how was the speed officially verified ?

I want to scratch build the six carriage set in Gauge 1 so will need to acquire some plans.

Thanks

[greenglade]

Hi Chris

The dynamo-meter car was most certainly part of the train for both up and down journey's..

These details are recorded in the LNER magazine from that year..

Down journey 147 tons

Locomotive 4472 'Flying Scotsman'
dynamo-meter car
corridor first
first dinner
compo brake
acheived 94.7 mph

for the return journey 2 carriages were added

corridor 3rd
first dinner
208 tons
achieved the famous 100 mph

Although it's not stated in the article I would assume that the order of the carriages was the same as written here


regards

Pete

[JASd17]

As far as I am aware, no absolute understanding of which vehicles were involved has been established. By that I mean running numbers, other than the dynamometer car.

What is also interesting, in the light of the make up of the train in March 1935, is that third class was included in the Silver Jubilee set. There was no third class accommodation provided in Papyrus's run.

John

[greenglade]

This image was printed with the article.. it may help with half of the train..



regards

Pete

[JASd17]

How?

John

[greenglade]

How?

John

John, if building a model of a train's particular composition a photo of said train taken at the time helps greatly. No it doesn't show the numbers on the carriages but then I doubt that this information is available, it does, however, show the train assembled and from what was asked for by Chris, this should help greatly.

BTW Chris there is another photo of the train on the NRM website which may also help you model the train, the carriages are arranged differently..this could be due to changes from the up and down trains or it could be that the photo isn't labelled correctly? The picture that I gave is from an article written at the time of the record run that appeared in the LNER magazine so I would probably trust that more if there is any discrepancy...

Kind regards

pete

[chrissheldrake]

Thanks for everyone who contributed a reply. Amazingly helpful !

I have no previous knowledge of this subject so what follows might be completely wrong.

The consist provided by Pete is very interesting if a little strange.

For the 100mph return run I would like to model, it was :

dynamometer car
corridor first
first dinner
compo brake
corridor 3rd
first dinner

The idea of putting on a second First Dinner carriage is odd. Could it be that they two carriages were added for expediency ? Perhaps they just had to be repositioned ? Seems unlikely.

Anyway, now my task is to try and identify each of the five carriages but it won't be possible to pin down the exact number of each unit, just the type and from which series. I've just received a copy of Michael Harris' book LNER Carriages so I'm using that for the research below but I'm not easily able to identify the three carriages visible behind the Dynamometer car in the picture in the useful article provided by Greenglade.

It would be reasonable to assume that the management would put their most modern stock on this record breaking effort :

That would mean that the single corridor First would be one of the end door carriages allocated to the Flying Scotsman service in August 1930.
The first two being numbered 1132 and 1133. There were another seven added to the series from 1931: 1131 and 1134-9 (Page 60-61 in the book)

The single Compo Brake might have been one of the series built between 1926 and 1933. If we go with the last built in 1933, that had two first and three third class compartments giving 12/18 seats. No Compo Brakes with end doors were produced before the date of the 100mph run.

The second from last carriage, the corridor 3rd, would likely be one of the 3rd end door carriages that were ordered in late 1932 (Page 61)

That just leaves the two First Dinner carriages :

The Harris book lists "V Restaurant Kitchen cars (First Class)" on page 135. I assume these are the "First Dinner" carriages Pete refers too ?
These were Doncaster-built and were ordered in 1929/30 numbered 31922/3

There are also "V Restaurant Kitchen cars (First Class)" on page 133. These were York-built and were ordered in 1927/28 numbered 678-80
And again "V Restaurant Kitchen cars (First Class)" on the same page, Doncaster-built as 51772/3 and these two were also ordered in 1927/28
Another pair numbered 51774/5, also Doncaster-built were taken up in 1928/29 and there were others :
682/3, 42969, 1222/3, 6119/20 & 651/2, dates unknown.

We are certainly making progress !

[JASd17]

Hi Chris,

I did write a piece on this story in the LNER Society Journal Winter 2014.

I cannot add to Greenglade's description of the stock, As far as I know Greenglade has everything that is known.

What is rather annoying, from a modelling view point, is the lack of definite information as to the carriage diagrams involved.

The Composite Brake in the original Down set and the Corridor Third in the Up additions being the most tricky to decipher. One must remember the trial stock was, I think, provided by the GN Section, therefore your numbers quoted above must start with a 4; or just possibly a 1.

John

[chrissheldrake]

Thanks John

Going through the list of stock in the book looking for Composite Brake Carriages with numbers starting 1 or 4 and built before 1934 there were :
10177/8
1076/7
1078-87
42881/2
42883
1081/2
1086
All built in York and ordered in 1924/25 so rather old stock.

1098/9
1105/10/25/6
All built at Doncaster and ordered in 1924/25 so, again, rather old.


480/1 built in Doncaster, ordered in 1926/27 but not corridor stock so unlikely to be included.
494/5 Built in Doncaster ordered in 1931/32 but not corridor stock so unlikely to be included.

4236/7 built Doncaster, ordered 1930/31 Vestibule Stock.

So, on the basis that newer corridor stock with numbers starting with 1 or 4, would have been selected, it appears quite likely that either 4236 or 4237 was the Brake Composite used.

I'll now try and do a similar analysis for the Corridor third.............

[john coffin]

Pretty sure there were members of the press on this train, as well as LNER staff looking to take extra measurements.
Thus, the First Diners' would provide extra room for people with stop watches, notebooks and so on to take their run details
from.


Paul

[chrissheldrake]

Vestibule Thirds with a number starting with 4 or 1 :

Doncaster, 1924-25
10019-32
1000-13
4462-4

Dukinfield, 1925
10113Y

York 1924-25
10033-68
1050/1
1014-51
4465-8/71/2/4/6

Dukinfield 1924-5
4819/25/8/35/6
1194/5 (42532/3)

York 1924-5
( Locker third )
1052-4 (750/1/3)

York 1925/6
4840/4/9/55/8

York 1930/31
4173/4
1320-3

York 1931/32
1342/4/5/78
1384/97-9

York 1932
1352/4/5/78

York 1933-34
167 ( 42516 )
168
1306
1308
1313-15
1327/8
1329-31
1435-40
1441-72

Unlike the Brake Composites, there are really too many Corridor Thirds to choose from. However, if a newer carriage with a number starting with 4 is more likely, and assuming that those ordered in 1933-34 were possibly not in service by the date of the 100mph run, the choice is narrowed down to just two : 4173 or 4174 ordered to be built in York in 1930/31.

In the absence of any further information I'll go with one of those.

[chrissheldrake]

Restaurant Vestibule First Class Carriages

Looking again at these and using John's suggestion that the numbers should probably start with 4 :

"Restaurant Kitchen Car First Class"

Doncaster 1927/28
43040 with only 18 seats
46191 with 36 seats

Doncaster 1928/29
42969 with only 18 seats

As I need two of these, I could choose one of each seating configuration or both carriages with only 18 seats

[greenglade]

Not sure if this is of any help Chris, it's the other photo that I mentioned ... it's a little closer so may help more in identifying the coaches...I know little about them yet, something that I will have to address when I start making my own rake of Gresley teaks....

according to the NRM this is also of 4472's record run 1934 although I'm not sure if that's correct, looks like too many coaches to me but I could be wrong



Pete

[61962]

Pete,

Definitely not the 100mph run - no dynamometer!

Headcode is for a stopping passenger train (one lamp on the top iron) and the loco looks pristine, so it's likely a running in turn after a general overhaul. If 1934 is the correct date, then 4472 was out-shopped 30th May 1934 so this would be early June. I'm sure one of the knowledgeable people on here will be able to tell us which troughs it's passing over and in which direction.

Eddie

[greenglade]

Thank's Eddie, glad to hear that my intuition is still working.. it does state on the NRM site that this is the record run, though... I wasn't sure in case the bridge may have been blocking the dyno car and that it was in a different configuration to the other picture posted.

cheers

pete