The LNER Encyclopedia

G'day,

I'm trying to work out whether I should paint my Howlden ex-GNR non-corridor stock in teak livery or painted black to represent their 1930s condition. Brian Haresnape's book on LNER liveries says that the ends of "Suburban (non-corridor) Stock" were painted black. I can't work out if he's referring to Suburban Stock (Quadarts etc) LNER built non-corridor stock or all non-corridor stock. Photos of ex GNR flat roof stock in LNER days are monochrome and carriages are scruffy so it's hard to tell. Can anyone point me in the right direction please?

Thanks,

Vernon

I think black ends came in after the 1928 economy livery, when they'd also have stopped being lined.

If I'm wrong I expect I'll be corrected in fairly short order.

I think black ends came in after the 1928 economy livery, when they'd also have stopped being lined.

If I'm wrong I expect I'll be corrected in fairly short order.

jwealleans wrote:I think black ends came in after the 1928 economy livery, when they'd also have stopped being lined.

If I'm wrong I expect I'll be corrected in fairly short order.

I'll only correct you once JW - it was rather earlier, from October 1925

Thanks for the information chaps. I guess you're saying that all non-corridor carriages had their ends painted black as and when they came up for repairs after 1925. So it must be likely that even old Howlden stock would have black ends by, say 1935.

Black paint out tomorrow, please don't change your minds now!

Regards,

Vernon

Photographic evidence shows vehicles built after 1925 were lined. The first ones to appear without lining are 1928 as JW stated. Not certain regarding the black ends.

Thanks Mike. I think I'm happy with new-builds it's the old-builds I'm scratching my head over! But thanks for the narrowing down the date of the economy measure.

I wonder what time passed between carriage overhauls for secondary stock?

Regards,

Vernon

Dodging the real question, is the practical answer simply to finish the coach ends in dense grime, as suggested in many pictures, so that the underlying colour ceases to be relevant or apparent?

Good idea Atlantic and probably the pragmatic answer. Certainly the pictures I've got show the carriages not exactly gleaming. However I've just found a 1930s picture of one of the Louth quad sets where someone appears to have made a half-hearted effort of cleaning one brake end's windows and the cleaned surrounding wood looks to be the same shade as that on the adjacent side. Maybe they went a long time between refurbs?

Cheers,

Vernon

I think the theory was every 5 years, but if stock was lightly used, well maintained and avoided accidents, I don't know of a reason why that couldn't slide.

Would the brake-end of a quad set be treated the same as a more typical non-gangway carriage? I don't know the answer but it would seem possible that the outer ends of a quad set might be teak and the inner ends black.

I've had a quick look through a couple of carriage books (Harris and Campling) and there are ex-GNR quad arts with teak ends and push-pull pairs with teak ends, but nothing that suggests inner ends of 'unit' trains or ends of single carriages are anything other than black. Of course that doesn't rule out Atlantic 3279's suggestion that everything is too filthy to tell.

teaky wrote:Would the brake-end of a quad set be treated the same as a more typical non-gangway carriage? I don't know the answer but it would seem possible that the outer ends of a quad set might be teak and the inner ends black.

I've had a quick look through a couple of carriage books (Harris and Campling) and there are ex-GNR quad arts with teak ends and push-pull pairs with teak ends, but nothing that suggests inner ends of 'unit' trains or ends of single carriages are anything other than black. Of course that doesn't rule out Atlantic 3279's suggestion that everything is too filthy to tell.

The GN Quads were the lowest of the low in terms of livery treatment; they were not even lined from the beginning. Non-vestibuled stock was to have the ends painted black from 1926 - I'd be really interested to know which illustrations in Harris or Campling show otherwise, as (i) they are not in colour, (ii) the photographs are generally dated much later and often in BR liveries and (iii) the Quads are not illustrated in the latter as there are not any drawings for them. You may be confused by the fact that, although painted black, the paint was then varnished so it would have a similar sheen to the sides when freshly out-shopped - the same effect may be seen on the black-painted footboards and so on too.

Harris (1994) - page 55 - Although the photo dates from 1965, the end looks very much the same colouring as the sides. Unlike the picture at the bottom of the page which looks very much like black. I appreciate that these aren't 1930s photos but surely black would appear more distinct? I have seen photos where freshly outshopped black ends are very shiny but I was not aware this was varnish though.

I made the same interpretation for the photos on pages 52 and 53. Again, both a in BR days but the push-pull driving trailer end doesn't look black.

Other pictures earlier in the book have black ends too I'd say.


Campling (1997) - page 94 - There is a photo of a Howlden 45' brake "shortly after the war" which appears to have black ends.


My aim was to reinforce the suggestion that black (or filthy) is the most likely colour for non-gangway carriage ends and that if any of the 'unit' trains did have teak ends that wasn't representative of the majority.

My choice of wording earlier: "with" might have been better as "with what might be". Apologies if I've misled anyone but at least I've learn't something about interpreting photos.

I'm not sure when it happened, but didn't ends start being painted body colour when stock started to be spray painted? Way off Vernon's' original query, but alluded to in the post above.

Thanks for all your help chaps. I think I have a plan.

Regards,

Vernon