The LNER Encyclopedia

When on a recent visit to Shildon, I inspected the "new" Stirling tender and noticed how far above the footplate the coal hole is, and wondered
how difficult that made it for a fireman. The space on the Stirling loco and tender is quite tight too, so although I understand the need to reduce
the number of steps you need to take from coal hole to firebox door, I just wonder what real advantage a high tender coal hole offers?

This also brings to life another problem for those modelling early, non preserved locos, which is having any photos of the front end of the tender
in normal usage. Frankly, it is difficult enough to find photos of the rear of tenders, but inside the front are it appears to be as rare as hen's teeth,
and often the drawings do not accurately reflect what actually happened on the tracks , so it is difficult to be super accurate.

Paul

From enginemen's accounts that I have read the real 'villains' were those where the shovelling plate was lower than the firehole. That meant that every shovelful had to be lifted, adding to the workload. The questions of shovelling plate to firehole relationship, and a cab floor layout clear of obstructions that would impede the fireman's workflow, were still being dealt with at the time of the BR standard classes development; this was an aspect that Riddles had reviewed, to ensure that the best practise was adopted. I think it is fair to say that it is similar to what Doncaster had finalised very early in the LNER's existence.

I often look at the small 'shelf plus shelter' cabs of the GNR and other lines, on locomotives that could at need be run at over 80mph, and think about the hardihood of the footplate crew. Reports of crew 'thrown clear' in derailments and collisons are hardly surprising: there was very little to stop them on many of the possible trajectories.

G'day Gents

A high tender coal hole would save the fireman's back from a lot of strain, as he could keep his back straight.

manna

I understand that Manna, but since the firebox hole is quite low, how does it really help?
I realise that you are returning an empty shovel to the coal hole, but it then becomes a diagonal movement it seems to me.

However we still do not have enough pictures of the front of GNR tenders.

Paul

Having shoveled quite a lot of coal (cleaning out cargo holds on bulk carriers as a cadet) I can see what Manna is saying.
A shovel full of coal is not very heavy, shifting several tons at a time is about technique not absolute physical strength.

If the coal hole is roughly the height of the fireman's crutch that would work out well for loading the shovel
The fireman would use the muscles in his legs and backto throw his body weight forward to force the shovel into the coal.
If the hole is close to your centre of gravity (roughly where your belly button is) it is easier and there is less strain.
Bending down to lift it from a lower level such as off a deck (floor) strengthens your back muscles or does them in eventually!

He would then take one step back to clear the shovel from tender coal hole and swing around towards the firehole.
If the firehole was close, using the momentum of the turn and a forward movement of the arms would propel the coal into the firebox with very little additional effort. (Or alternatively a flick to left or right into the back corners of the grate).
If it was further to the fire hole then a step (or two) forward and the same arm action would work.

Having the firehole at a lower level would mean less effort would be needed because as soon as the coal leaves the shovel it is always going to lose height as it travels through the firehole and down the grate. If the firehole was the same height or higher the fireman would have to throw the coal 'upwards' to get it to travel through an arc to reach the far end of the grate, which will take more effort.

Alan

Thanks Alan,
that makes it much clearer and explains something that no one else ever has.

Paul

Not LNER, but would you believe that even in BR days, certainly on the 'Standard' 4MT 2-6-4 tanks, that one had to shovel coal from the floor to a higher level fire hole.

Speaking as a fireman on a preserved railway I would agree with eightpot and it's the same with the gwr engine and industrial locomotives that are based on our railway they have a low shoveling plate and a raised firebox door but I have found it not to be to much of a problem providing u can swing properly and use your legs to provide the power to throw the coal.
Thanks james

Having fired myself I can say that the best option is for the shovel plate and firehole door to be at the same height. The distance between the tender front and the boiler backhead can be helped when firing by the use of a longer shovel - I have two one medium length and one slightly shorter which will cover use on most locos.
I know of one ex. BR fireman from Skipton who could fire a Midland 4F southbound from Appleby, up to Aisgil, sitting down using a long shovel and having fired a 4F I can believe him too!