Livery of ex-NB XFISH

[John Palmer]

Slower than I would like, I am approaching the point at which I can apply a livery to the first of several ex-North British 6-wheel fish vans I have to build. My question is: what should that livery be?

My point of reference for the model is the entry for these vans starting at p.38 of Tatlow, LNER Wagons, Vol. 3. The section contains illustrations of these vehicles in both pre- and post-1936 lettering styles. The lettering schemes appear to be those appropriate for goods rolling stock, yet the vehicle illustrated with large 'NE' lettering is branded 'FISH TRAFFIC BY PASSENGER TRAINS ONLY'.

The obvious inference to draw from the employment of goods stock lettering is that these vehicles were finished in the red oxide livery applied to fitted goods vehicles. The branding cited makes me wonder whether, instead, they were finished in the brown livery applied to NPCS. Moreover, Danny Pinnock's instructions for the kit of the model I am building says 'NPCS livery Bodywork, Dk Reddish Brown Teak', also suggesting a hybrid livery of NPCS brown and goods stock lettering.

Grateful for anything that would confirm the correct colour of the bodywork (period for my model is c. 1938-39).

[Bill Bedford]

The LNER classed fish vans as goods stock. In addition I can't really believe that the wagon works maintained slightly different shades of brown paint for different classes of vehicle, though npcs were varnished. OTOH I can believe that there were marked differences in colour of the paint used by different works

[John Palmer]

Bill, I'm unclear about what you are seeking to convey. Are you saying that the colour applied to NPCS was the same as that applied to fitted goods stock, and that differences between these in appearance were accounted for, in part, by the application of varnish? I was under the impression that the goods stock red oxide colour was quite different from the teak paint applied to NPCS. I have tins of Precision Paints' formulations for LNER wagon oxide and for teak paint, and FWIW the difference between them is immediately apparent.

[mick b]

I done my one red oxide as other fish vans. Why would this be a NCPS vehicle?

[John Palmer]

When built, the majority of these fish vans were allocated to North British carriage diagram books, diagram 45 in the book issued c. 1908 and diagram 44 in that issued c.1921. For this reason I assume they were treated as NPCS by the NBR.

I acknowledge that they were re-numbered into the wagon number series by the LNER, but the fact that at least one as so renumbered received a 'BY PASSENGER TRAINS ONLY' inscription suggests that their new owners equivocated about whether they were goods vehicles or NPCS.

I don't recall having ever seen a picture showing them in a goods train. There's a shot of Glen Croe that also shows several of them on the pier at Mallaig, but this may well have been taken during shunting operations. They were still being marshalled into passenger trains in 1939.

(Edited to remove surplus 'BY')

[2512silverfox]

Danny Pinnock is usually pretty careful about livery detail and is bound to have spoken to his NBR chums about this. He tends to leave out livery detail if unsure.

My advice from NBR specialists some twenty years ago was that the vehicles remained NPCS and I have painted mine in 'teak' accordingly. Nobody has commented adversely so far i.e. since 1995!

[John Palmer]

That's helpful, thank you very much. In view of this I think I'll go along with brown rather than oxide, not least since I find I still have tins both of Humbrol HR 143 and Precision teak (that covers the variation between Doncaster and York, but what about Cowlairs?!)

In the course of my researches I came across http://www.scaleworld.info/#. This site sets out various colour charts including the old Humbrol Authentic range. Whilst monitor variations etc may well distort the colour representations in these charts, they may be useful as a guide, particularly for discontinued colours, and the site is one I haven't previously seen as the subject of a link.