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Well wagon type - NER?
Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:31 am
by Rlangham
I'm trying to get a definitive answer on what these type of well wagons are. I believe they are GWR type, as there's one or two survivors that were apparently used in WW1 and mounted with naval guns, but nothing to say it's the very same ones. Twelve of these guns were mounted on these wagons by the North Eastern Railway at Darlington North Road (in response to a number of Zeppelin raids on Tyneside which was relatively defenceless)
Thanks, Rob
Re: Well wagon type - NER?
Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:50 am
by john coffin
both NER and GNR had somewhat similar trolleys.
Logic is to check Tatlow volumes.
Paul
Re: Well wagon type - NER?
Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:37 pm
by John Palmer
I believe this is a GW design, as can be seen from the Dean-Churchward brake levers at each end, and from the appearance of the axleboxes. My best guess is that this vehicle is one of 3 built to the GWR's Crocodile G design in August 1915 under Order O.387 and assigned diagram reference C19.
However, the 3 vehicles mentioned reportedly mounted 6" calibre Admiralty guns. This is a big weapon for an anti-aircraft gun (even by the Second World War, the largest AA guns mounted on British warships were the QF Mark I guns of 5.25" calibre (secondary batteries on King George V class battleships and main batteries on Dido class light cruisers), so I have some doubts as to whether the photograph shows one of the O.387 vehicles. Alternatively, of course, the caption may be wrong, and these guns were never intended for AA use.
Re: Well wagon type - NER?
Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:40 pm
by Rlangham
Thanks John, the image is from an NER Magazine issue published in 1919 which describes the war manufacture of the railway and describes them as 6 inch guns, I presume they are from the same stock of surplus 6 inch naval guns that were also used to make the land service 6 inch guns and bored out and shortened to make land service 8 inch howitzers - railways were involved in building the carriages for these too (such as the GWR, GNR and NER, and I think MR). The 6 inch anti-aircraft railway mounted guns get a mention in a number of sources such as 'Hartlepool Railways' by George Smith, 'Guns of the North East' by Joe Foster and 'Railways of Teesside' by Ken Hoole. The following is text from a display I wrote for the Tanfield Railway's Great War Weekend regarding Zeppelin raids on the North East, the information is from 'Baby Killers - German air raids on Britain in the First World War' by Thomas Fegan and 'Air Defence of Britain 1914-18' by Christopher Cole and EF Cheesman;
At thirty minutes past midnight on 16th June 1915, Kapitanleutnant Hirsch arrived over Tyneside in Zeppelin L10. The industrial buildings along the Tyne were lit up and an inviting target, there was no searchlights and only ineffective fire from HMS Brilliant, an old cruiser that was guarding the Tyne. The first bombs were dropped over Wallsend on the Eastern Marine Engineering Works causing heavy damage. Palmer’s Shipyard at Jarrow was then bombed, killing seventeen workers and injuring seventy-two. Pochin’s Chemical Works was then hit, and housing at Willington, killing a policeman. After thirty destructive minutes, L10 left, dropping bombs over coal mines at South Shields. The glare from fires caused by the raid could be seen from the Zeppelin when it was thirty nautical miles away on the journey home. Five British home defence aircraft took off to intercept the raider including two BE2c aeroplanes from RNAS Whitley Bay, but none sighted the Zeppelin (although one aircraft was spotted by the Zeppelin crew). The lack of effective defence resulted in two 12 pounder anti-aircraft guns on mobile mountings being issued to Newcastle, and provoked the mounting of twelve 6 inch naval guns fitted for anti-aircraft use and mounted on railway wagons by the North Eastern Railway at Darlington
Re: Well wagon type - NER?
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:37 am
by John Palmer
Rob, what you say about these being 6" guns is entirely consistent with the information I hold that led to my suggestion as to their GW origin - incidentally I derived that information from Vol.2, 'A History of GWR Goods Vehicles' by Atkins et al, p.16.
It would be interesting to know a little more about the guns themselves, and in particular whether they used fixed ammunition or bagged propellant. Just imagine having to heft fixed ammunition to serve a gun of this size - rate of fire (important in an AA gun) would not have been high!
I wonder whether their real purpose may have been as a morale booster to the populace: anything to give the impression that we were hitting back at the Zeppelins, but with no strong likelihood of bringing one down.
Re: Well wagon type - NER?
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:38 am
by drmditch
I believe (from other reading) that in WW1 even some four-inch guns used separate ammunition (ie with the cordite propellant in separate charges rather than fixed to a shell. It is unlikely that six-inch guns would be different.
Quite what this meant for the rate-of-fire on a heaving deck like that of a WW1 destroyer it is difficult to imagine!
The mounting on your picture, although possibly adapted for high-angle fire looks a bit 'femmer' to my eyes, and I do not see how it would absorb the recoil. I will try to find my copies of Brassey's Naval Annual which does have some drawings.
Certainly by 1917/18 there would have been a fair number of 6" guns available from obsolete cruisers. Stocks were still being used in 1939/40 to equip armed merchant cruisers.
Re: Well wagon type - NER?
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:19 pm
by Bill Bedford
This appears to be a QF 6" gun which would have used propellant in brass cases, there is more info on the
wikipedia page
