The LNER Encyclopedia

Afternoon all

I'm looking for a little advice on A4 backhead colours during the 1930's....when looking at Mallard today ( and other preserved a4's ) she shows a lot of 'red' paint on various components. My question is, is this purely a left over from her BR days and would these components including handles all have been polished brass/metal during her LNER hey days?

regards

Pete

PS: any colour pictures from that era would be most helpful...

I found this image of DoC being restored to 1930's condition for the ' A4 gathering'....all polished bare metal.... would i be correct in thinking this is a good representation of an A4 footplate during the 30's?




Pete

Pete,

I think your best chance of seeing a 'correct' A4 backplate is to view Mallard at the NRM. When it was restored for the National Collection the work was done at Doncaster and there would be men involved in 1963 who would have been there pre war, so there is every chance that the livery was authentic, albeit to what would be classed as exhibition standard. Subsequent repaints have followed what went before so it should be reflective of the original restoration.

4489 is marred by the retention of the AWS control box under the driver's seat, the AWS battery box under the fireman's seat where the Flamman recorder was fitted, and the AWS air admission and isolation valves by the reverser. Your photograph shows the AWS indicator and driver's operation handle missing, but this was also replaced after the paintwork was finished. See my photograph below.

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Eddie

Hi Eddie

thanks for the reply....it's the bright red controls on Mallard today that I'm having the biggest issue with....I was under the impression that red paint was a BR only theme and that pre nationalization the controls were bare metal, highly polished... am I wrong in thinking this?..I'm sure that I read this somewhere...perhaps in the relevant RCTS tome although not had the time to reread the whole book to find it again.

Pete

Hi Pete,

I have no reason not to believe that locos had unpainted controls pre-war given they had a lot of labour available to keep them clean in those days. Unfortunately all the contemporary photographs I have access to are black and white and as you probably know red was not a colour that showed up well in that medium so it is difficult to tell if surfaces are painted or not. Having experience of cleaning a locomotive backplate after lighting up I would not be happy to have to clean all the unpainted steel each time, not only covered in soot but probably also having a film of rust, particularly as the first stage of the clean up is to wash the backplate down with high pressure hot water from the slacker pipe. The brass and copper surfaces clean up more easily and I'm sure these were often cleaned each day, but the likes of check valves and steam valves would have the muck baked on and require a lot of time and effort to clean.

Eddie

Thanks Eddie...this is my school of thought too...always open to first hand knowledge saying different though but doubt there are many if any footplate crew from pre war days still around..sad to say....I'll go with the polished metal for now unless other info comes to light saying otherwise. It's easy to add paint but not so to remove it from items once attached to the backhead......many thanks

Pete

Pete,

Had a browse of a few books this morning and came to the conclusion that the regulator handles were unpainted in LNER days. Also the reverser handle including the centre boss. The injector valve body and the injector, where a vertical live steam one was fitted, were painted - probably red if the Doncaster restoration of the GN atlantic 251 reflected authentic GNR/LNER practice, but the access caps on the top were unpainted brass. The regulator stuffing box would have been black painted and the gauge frames and brake ejector unpainted brass. There is a photo of the rebuilt 4470's cab in East Coast Pacifics and the single GC type regulator handle is painted I think, or just badly neglected - but that was post war.

Eddie

thanks again Eddie...that seems a good theme to follow ....I have the 1929 film 'Flying Scotsman' on DVD somewhere...that should help too, I just wasn't sure if the A4's may have been treated differently...them being special...

many thanks for looking for me, it's very much appreciated..

Pete

Sorry to be late here but I have posted some photos to my Flickr site below of the cabs of 60008 and 60010 at their locations in 2008 and 2010. 60008 has painted surfaces and like the valve gear I wonder if this was added while at Greenbay. 60008 shows the metal surfaces untouched, I am assuming as shipped to Canada for display from BR.

The link to the photos is:- https://www.flickr.com/photos/8336963@N ... 6524617538

Hope of interest,

Steve W

Hi Steve

thanks for that...I had a browse through your wonderful photo's...you have some fantastic close ups in your portfolio....very nice pictures sir...many thanks for sharing them..

cheers

Pete

Pete,

Thanks for the note. Both visits were a one time occasion, related to work and a family visit, so took many pictures all over the locos. Primarily for modeling but also as a record of the event. 60010 was in a poor state in the outside storage hall but great to see her, 60008 more in view as the primary exhibit at Greenbay.

I do have more images of both and will post some more to my Flickr pages in time, they do get a lot of visits so I am glad they are of use to people.

Steve

I've just come into this dialogue and am totally impressed with the info and, of course, the photos. However, I must say that being the pedant I am I'm pleased I didn't get into this when repainting a number of A4 models to reflect (hopefully) the complete range of liveries that these wonderful machines ran in. Just a bit of 'fine tuning' to go to complete the series but alas, only the outsides - and not all this brilliant cab detail which would have me still wondering which way to go. (Once I master the art of scanning, I will post these models on the forum as, over some 2 years, I have had a lot of advice and help from various ones of you out there and would like you to know that I did pay attention).
Graeme Leary,
New Zealand

I wonder if this helps?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LNER-Mikado-L ... 4ae3011ab4

Presumably it is the cab interior of a P1.

John

Thanks for that John....it's images like this that are most valuable to those seeking authentic details for modelling, it may just be a printed cig card but it's in colour and very likely to be accurate too...nice find.....cheers...

Pete