The LNER Encyclopedia

When originally constructed Howlden's GNR brake vans had a lamp on top of each ducket.

In LNER days this disappears and what looks like a patch is placed over what might have been an opening.

My question is: when did this transition happen? (And have I accurately guessed what I'm looking at?)

Not sure, but it is likely to be when more carriages were transferred from gas lighting, and also when the GNR changed some of its light practices.
Maybe something that Gresley did with the artic conversions.

Will check my data over the next couple of days and see what I can find

Paul

The necessity for riding lights on passenger trains was discontinued at grouping in 1923. Up until then most (?) companies provided riding lights either on the guards' duckets or, as in the case of the GNR when more discreet duckets took over, built in lights in the top of the lookout (i.e. Leeds quint set and late GN build Quadarts. The lights where lamps were employed were usually red i.e. Royal train brake 109 at the NRM which retained them after 1923.

On the original Howlden stock, the lamp housing showed red rearwards, white forwards by means of shutters and also assisted in the illumination of the guard's van. Hence the additional 'patches' when they were removed. The provenance of this was proved when we restored the GN 6 wheel brake 848 which is in the NRM now. As originally built these vans has no skylights, lamps or ventilators and the glass in the duckets was full length.

Thanks very much for those details. I did wonder about the different sizes of windows in the guards' duckets.

... or, as in the case of the GNR when more discreet duckets took over, built in lights in the top of the lookout (i.e. Leeds quint set and late GN build Quadarts).

Nick,

After you mentioned this, I took another look at your drawings in Historic LNER carriages, and sure enough there's a little dot above the window in the "discreet" duckets. This raises another question: with these built-in lights -- although not needed -- were they switched on after 1923?

Thanks,

Dave Lester

No; they were plated over as far as I can remember.

Thanks once again.