The LNER Encyclopedia

I've noticed in articles on NER layouts tank locomotives are in 2 shades of green. I've recently obtained a Raven 4.4.4T & would like to repaint it in its original livery. Can you help please? Thanks in anticipation Peter

Peter,

The Raven Class D 4-4-4 passenger tank first appeared in 1913 and by then the North Eastern Railway had long since settled on an overall colour of Saxony Green lined in black with a 1/8" white line on both sides. The two tone livery of Saxony Green combined with Brunswick green dates from the much earlier Fletcher period. If you can visit the National Railway Museum at York, the preserved NER tank locomotive Aeroite has been finished in the later livery in a similar manner to that of the Class D. A good picture of a Class D, No 2147, appears in Volume 3 of the North Eastern Record, which covers the development and liveries of NER locomotives. Unfortunately this publication is now out of print but is well worth seeking out if you are interested in the North Eastern Railway. If you are located near Darlington a copy will be available for inspection at the Ken Hoole Study Centre/North Eastern Railway Association Archives located at the Head of Steam Museum, North Road Station, Darlington. http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Leisure/he ... nhoole.htm
You may also find the web site of the North Eastern Railway Association useful. https://sites.google.com/site/northeast ... assoc/home

Tom.






,,,k,

I recently bought a couple of copies of NER record at a cheap bookshop near Waterloo in London, don't ask why somewhere in South London would have copies, but there used to be the Ian Allan shop nearby, so who knows??
It seems to be an original NERA /HMRS book, so probably in store somewhere since 1997, still I agree a great book even for a dyed in the wool GNR fan, some useful data.

Paul

Thanks Tom, but I'm still a little confused. resorting to my Marginalert I found 2 layouts from old RMs one of which featured the loco in a sort of darkish blue side of green colour (hope this makes sense) where as 'Aerolite' appears to be in a lighter yellow side of green tint.
What am I do? Thanks in anticipation Peter

The two-tone green livery is very attractive imho, and there is an example at York: No. 1275 the Bouch 'Long Boiler'. I briefly considered the livery for my model but I suspect I'll end up doing it all black.

I'm not sure about the bluish-green, could it be poor lighting or bad choice of colour?
As well as two tone green, there were two different shades of green - one fairly light (aka 'Aerolite') and the other darker. Perhaps you photos are of the latter but with poor lighting, or the magazine colours have changed over time?


re. NER Record. There are three volumes. The first volume is long out of print, but the NERA have had vols 2&3 on remainder for a while. I think they now might be as low as GBP5 each from meetings? They're good books so it is surprising they have lasted so long. I'm wondering if they over-produced after high demand for the first volume?

Reference to E S Carter's 'Britain's Railway Liveries' indicates that 'Aerolite' carried a livery that differed in several important respects from the standard at the time, so if true best to ignore that and concentrate on the regular livery. Whilst Carter is very clear on the descriptions of livery, perceived colour, lining and so on but significantly fails those seeking accuracy by not including standard colour references to any known system but rather provides his own set of colour chips.

Having said that I found that the NE Record volumes were of mixed value when considering liveries etc. Buildings and structures, and rolling stock, were very clear and precise, but locomotives were rather confusing and lacking clarity.

I'm sorry you found the locomotive colours in NER Record Volume 3 confusing. I think they are very impressive, especially the reproductions of paintings by V Welch.

I think if you are looking for standard paint colours from the Fletcher or McDonnell eras (prior to 1885) then you will not find any consistency whatever! It is only prior to 1885 that two shades of green were recorded on NER locomotives.

What with three different works, (Gateshead, York and Leeds - Darlington remaining semi-independent) and Mr Fletcher's concentration on basic design and effectiveness on the road rather then pettifogging details such as wheel diameters etc, then I suspect paint colours and 'corporate image' were the last thing anyone was bothered about. It might be interesting to find some of the unofficial artwork that caused upset to the worthies of the ecclesiastical establishment in York!

The famous 'Saxony Green' (equal parts of Prussian Blue and Middle Chrome Yellow) was used from 1885 onwards. (Reference Vol 3 Page 73) Until 1893 there were wide crimson lake borders. Until 1903/4 this green was applied to all engines. I think the Class T 0-8-0 looks most impressive in this livery. After 1904 only passenger engines were green.

Having made allowances for all the vagaries of paint mix/coats and transparency of varnish/photographic emulsion/ lighting/colour reproduction, I think I like the Welch paintings the best. Perhaps after all the human eye is best for recording the appearance of such complex shapes in different conditions of light and shade.

Perhaps you could make a trip to Shildon to see Class M 1621. She looks magnificent!

65447 wrote:Reference to E S Carter's 'Britain's Railway Liveries' indicates that 'Aerolite' carried a livery that differed in several important respects from the standard at the time, so if true best to ignore that and concentrate on the regular livery. Whilst Carter is very clear on the descriptions of livery, perceived colour, lining and so on but significantly fails those seeking accuracy by not including standard colour references to any known system but rather provides his own set of colour chips.

E.S. Carter's book is a collection of press clippings and other writings which describe railway liveries. Much of it is impressionistic and much contradictory. It should never be seen as a primary source.

In one of McLeans works on the NER he mentions an employee doing an accurate drawing of the two green livery, I will try to find more for you . The reference is definitely held in the NRM because that's where I read it while looking through McLean for something else.

Peter,
I now see that your original enquiry related to the colour reproduction in the magazine articles and not to the change in painting styles from two tone to single colour! It is unwise to use such articles as a basis for deciding what colour to use. Possibly the most accurate rendition of North Eastern Railway green is that applied to the Tennant No 1463 which was repainted in 1925, only a short period after the grouping and no doubt by personnel who had a good working knowledge of NER practice. It is currently on display at the Head of Steam Museum, Darlington and you could view it if you are able to visit the Ken Hoole Study Centre as previously suggested.
NER green is available from paint suppliers such as Phoenix/Precision Paints :- http://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/precisi ... -1951.html but perhaps modellers of the NER could suggest alternatives such as a suitable automotive paint.
Tom.

Peter Rich may post here, but I had an email from him thanking everyone for their help.