1938 'Flying Scotsman' Set

[Tom F]

Morning all!
I always thought the Flying Scotsman 1938 set came into service for the Summer Timetable (July 38) however I've just read in the A4 Pacifics accompaniments compendium by Peter Coster, that it came into use in the Autumn of 1938, with the 1928 stock being used in the summer.

As I modelling summer 1938, it would be a useful one to know an exact date.

Any help would be welcome, thanks.

[60117 Bois Roussel]

I would like to see the evidence for this assertion. To begin with, it was reported in the press, including The Railway Gazette of 8 July 1938 (of which I have a copy), that the new train was demonstrated to the public on 30 June and entered service on 4 July, 1938.

Had it failed to show for over two months, until "Autumn", I think somebody might have noticed and questions been asked! It is confusing anyway to assert that the new train entered service in the winter timetable, which had a different formation. We quoted both in "LNER Passenger Trains & Formations" last year.

The Carriage Working book, or an amendment of it, would have stated what was intended - but isn't necessary for the hard proof comes from photographs (not all of which are dated, of course, or not always very accurately; yes, there are pitfalls for the unwary everywhere). Below is an ER Wethersett photograph taken at Ganwick of the new Up train on 24th August 1938:

Pressure ventilated coaches stand out, as does the newly built teak BG (which is known from another photograph to be No 1012) and the Restaurant Triplet Set. It's harder to tell further back but there is no longer any sign of the Toilet 3rd. However, two coaches have been substituted - the TK and FK between the BG and RTS. Both have conventional ventilation and the latter has turnbuckle trussing. Substitution like this was routine and doesn't normally stand out like this. I'll see if I can find more dated pictures from the first season and add them to "The Flying Scotsman" section on my website.

[robertcwp]

Railway Observer for July 1938 also reported that the new trains entered service on 4 July.

[greenglade]

Hi Tom

I agree with Steve and Robert on the date of 4th July 1938 as the first train for the non-stop summer season. There was also a 50th anniversary special on June 30th to demonstrate the advances in the service over the past 50 years, they compared a run between the No.1 8 ft single driver of 1888 to the A4 Sir Nigel Gresley , this was covered in detail in 'The Locomotive' magazine dated 15th July 1938.
New train make up was: ( the typical 1888 make up was also given for anyone modelling that era)

corridor third brake
corridor third
corridor composite lockers
corridor third
buffet lounge
corridor third
restaurant third
kitchen car
restaurant first
corridor first
corridor third
luggage van

The same train set up was used for the introduction of the Sunday Scotsman which started on July 10th 1938, the magazine article also gives some details and pictures of the train interiors, fabrics used, lamp wattage etc etc..

Regards

Pete

[60117 Bois Roussel]

There never was any doubt about the new train starting on 4th July 1938 except in Peter Coster's mind, and the real question was, what was he on about? How could something so obviously wrong be committed to print?

I have now seen the book in question and it contains several errors about the train, a full debunking of which runs to a page. Clive and I penned a dedicated chapter about the 1938 train in "LNER Passenger Trains & Formations, The Principal Services" and I have added a section on the website that adds to it. It actually hinges not on the official paperwork (never the whole story) but on how the trains were operated in practice and the photographic support.

Peter Coster took a picture of the Scotsman and began by misdating it - it was not from "summer 1938" but from a year later, spring 1939, when the new train was out for refurbishing. A substitute set was standing it - visibly not the "1928 stock", which is a misnomer in itself. These mistakes led to the assertion that the new train hadn't started running until several months after it had been widely observed and reported in service. Alarm bells should have rung! Indeed, the F/S was so heavily photographed and the pictures so good that individual carriage numbers can be read and individual train sets identified. It's in the public domain and I have placed three more pictures and details on the website.

[robertcwp]

I would be grateful for any information which might help to date this image:

2508_FlyingScotsman_1930s by robertcwp, on Flickr

I don't have the 1938 carriage workings but here is the Summer 1939 booked formation:


And, for comparison, Summer 1936:


Actual formations may have differed as noted earlier in this thread.

[JASd17]

Corridor Tender on 2508, so between 4-1935 and 4-1937. Up Train approaching Potters Bar.

John

[robertcwp]

Corridor Tender on 2508, so between 4-1935 and 4-1937. Up Train approaching Potters Bar.

John

Thanks for the information.

[JASd17]

Robert,

I have access to some locomotive working observations from the mid 1930s. This chap was out virtually every day.

His very first sighting of 2508 was at Oakleigh Park on 15-8-1935. It was on the Up Flying Scotsman. He may have missed it before on a few occasions, but not if it had been working the Scotsman regularly. He notes it working back the next day on the Down service.

The formation is the same as that given in Banks and Carter for 1936, with the Diagram 45 steel-panelled BG leading.

The A1 and A3 classes were not rostered to work the non-stop after 1936. So summer 1935 or 1936 is the most likely date for the photo.

John

[JASd17]

Last piece of the jigsaw.

2508 has front footsteps in the photo.

It was not built with these, but they would have been fitted at its first General Repair. Yeadon has this dated to early in 1936.

So summer 1936 is the date.

John

[jwealleans]

Does Tommy Knox have anything from that date, John?

[JASd17]

Jonathan, that is a good suggestion.

There is a comment in the relevant Yeadon that Brown Jack was a regular on the non-stop in 1935-6. I am not so sure about 1935, given the Frank Giles records noted above, but it could well have been a regular in 1936.

I am checking if there is anything in the RO and GO too.

Apologies to Tom for hijacking this thread.

John

[60117 Bois Roussel]

Message deleted, doesn't belong in this thread; it's been hijacked too much already!

[robertcwp]

Thanks again for the information on the image in my collection.

[sawdust]

Does anyone know of any drawings or photographs (excluding those in the national collection) of buffet lounge cars 1852 & 1853, which may be of use in restoring 1852 to original condition?

Many thanks

Sawdust.