Thompson Coaches - a Question of grain

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sawdust
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Re: Thompson Coaches

Post by sawdust »

Green Nigel wrote:They where very pleasing to look at from the outside but I don't think that the interiors where anything special. I often wonder about the efficiency of the internal layout in its arrangement of the transvestibules as compared to contemporary Bulleid carriages.
How many Thompson's have you been in? Being involved closely with the restoration of 1623 has given me a great respect for the design. The compartments are light and spacious and in the same fashion as BR mk1s of a similar vintage, except for the use bronze coloured metal fittings rather than anodised aluminium and more extensive use of moquette which is of a colour and pattern in keeping with the tones of the wood and metal finishes.

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Re: Thompson Coaches

Post by Green Nigel »

My farther worked on them, he regarded them as a bit cheap compared to a lot of the pre war stock. I've been in three restored ones and also a beautiful Bulleid at the KWVR.
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Re: Thompson Coaches

Post by 65447 »

Green Nigel wrote:They where very pleasing to look at from the outside but I don't think that the interiors where anything special. I often wonder about the efficiency of the internal layout in its arrangement of the transvestibules as compared to contemporary Bulleid carriages.
The cross-vestibules derived from several factors - lessons learned from the massive overcrowding during WW2, greater access and egress for the comfort of passengers (and for faster station stops), and also influenced by better arrangements for evacuation in the event of fire. Remember that the CME designed carriages to meet the requirements laid down by the operating departments.

As to materials and finishes these were designed immediately post-WW2 and constrained by its consequent material shortages, especially steel and imported timber, and the need for a degree of utility in furnishings and fittings.
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sawdust
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Re: Thompson Coaches

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Well do please drop in for a look round 1623 at Pickering.

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sawdust
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Re: Thompson Coaches

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I can assure you that the quality of materials used to finish the interiors post war was no less than pre war, only a different style was being used. The design of the compartment coaches means you don't have to walk past more than one compartment from the one you are seated in to reach an exit.

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Re: Thompson Coaches

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S.A.C. Martin wrote:And yet it must be telling that Peter Grafton - the only writer out of the hundreds out there - goes into more detail on the work done to 8579 than the rest (which normally equates it simply as a Gresley build and fails to mention Edward Thompson entirely, without saying to what extent modifications were made and how).

Grafton's book seems to be fairer and more balanced than any other book I have read on Edward Thompson, giving both sides of the equation. He mentions with reference to the B12 that Thompson "paid particular attention to the valve modifications. A full sized mock up of the valve gear was made and housed in Stratford works and Mr English relates how he spent many afternoons working out the valve events from the mockup up with Thompson enthusiastically turning the handle which operated it". (Page 26 of my edition. There's a lovely photograph of the preserved 8572, albeit in original condition, and 8579 next to her).
Getting OT for this thread but worth understanding that Grafton bases his discourse on Thompson's walks to Paddington station and listening to the sound that GWR locomotives emitted, attributed to sharp valve events with long travel, high boiler pressure, and a small smokebox.

1. Stratford and A.E. English already had experience with the valve events and long travel valves. Following the Locomotive Exchanges Gresley had already learnt this lesson and was applying it - including to the batch of N7/2s built during 1926/7, most of which ended up at Stratford and before Thompson took up his duties there;

2. B12 8525 was experimentally fitted with Lenz valve-gear in 1928 and then the batch of 10 further B12s ordered from Beyer Peacock in 1928 were specified to have Lenz valve-gear. This proved unsuccessful in that cam shafts were prone to fail due to twisting and monobloc cylinder castings cracked;

3. B12 8559 was the first to be fitted with long-travel valves in December 1930, the design work being carried out at Stratford, so the first stage of the 'secret' modification was not made to the same locomotive as Grafton states;

4. Improvements to the GE permanent way finally allowed an increase the permitted weights of engines, which factor provided for the more extensive rebuilding to what became B12/3, and 8579 was the first in May 1932 - one of the 1928 Beyer Peacock engines that needed attention due to the faults arising from the Lentz valve gear - the penultimate B12 constructed and barely 3.5 years old.

5. It is worth noting that neither the boiler pressure nor cylinder size were changed, so the tractive effort remained unchanged and thus one of the factors attributed to the GWR locomotives (high boiler pressure) was not introduced during the rebuild.

Note that Grafton writes 'It is likely that he [Thompson] proceeded under his own initiative..." but the evidence elsewhere does not support his version of events.

References - the relevant RCTS Parts, and FAS Brown's and Dr. Geoffrey Hughes biographies of Gresley.
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Re: Thompson Coaches

Post by Green Nigel »

sawdust wrote:Well do please drop in for a look round 1623 at Pickering.

Sawdust.
Thanks for the invite, from what I've seen of 1623 she looks absolutely superb. My comments are not meant as a criticism of the restoration of this rare and historically valuable carriage.

I must say that I have only admiration for the work put into these carriages by the teams that work on them.

I am one hundred percent certain that 1623 will be in better condition when complete then at any time in her life. What a treat it will be to see her out on the line.
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Re: Thompson Coaches

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Green Nigel wrote:
sawdust wrote:Well do please drop in for a look round 1623 at Pickering.

Sawdust.
Thanks for the invite, from what I've seen of 1623 she looks absolutely superb. My comments are not meant as a criticism of the restoration of this rare and historically valuable carriage.

I must say that I have only admiration for the work put into these carriages by the teams that work on them.

I am one hundred percent certain that 1623 will be in better condition when complete then at any time in her life. What a treat it will be to see her out on the line.
It won't be any better than when it was new! No criticism taken, I'm defending the design.

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Re: Thompson Coaches

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

Hi 65447 - that's a very fair argument you've put forward there. Can't argue with that at all. I've got those books, will look up the relevant sections. Many thanks.
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Re: Thompson Coaches

Post by Blink Bonny »

Ay up!

I have to say that I've never actually travelled in a Post-War LNER coach. I travelled in the Gresley buffet now on the GCR during its earlier incarnation on the KWVR and on the Gresley set at the Severn Valley.

The only vehicles I've seen were BGs marshalled in the Red Bank empty stock train.

Is there any truth in the argument I've heard put forward that the steel coaches were designed because the price of teak had gone through the roof after the war, making it not economically (try spelling that with a stutter and rotten keyboard skills!! :lol: ) viable?

EDIT: I've now started work on these coaches and all decisions have been taken. Bogies, trussing, corridor connectors and roof ventilators have all been ordered from Coopercraft (ex- Ian Kirk parts, I believe) and I await delivery. More details on the build will be found on this link: on-my-workbench-t5344s90.html for details.
If I ain't here, I'm in Bilston, scoffing decent chips at last!!!!
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sawdust
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Re: Thompson Coaches

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There is probably a lot of truth in that Blink. But also that Teak would have been seen as old fashioned by then, don't forget that there were massive advances in technology during the war years. Also don't forget that a big toe was dipped in the water pre war with steel panelled stock, so they would have had more confidence in the method.
The biggest change from the Gresley steel panelled stock is the body shape, which is wider at the cant rail. The LNER Gresley's seem to be built to a smaller loading gauge than the GNR ones. Was the reason the post war stock was a different shape due to the new Woodhead tunnel?

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Re: Thompson Coaches

Post by jwealleans »

I don't know off hand which company was the limiting factor, but the LNER composite loading gauge was smaller than that of a number of the member companies including the GN. So it is possible that the standard coach had to be changed although I don't recall Harris ever mentioning it. I shall have to go back and have a look.

For anyone visiting Pickering I can recommend sticking your nose into the carriage shops - the LNERCA chaps there were very friendly and happy to show us over the coach they were working on. I'm quite looking forward to having a ride in that Thompson when it's released to traffic.
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sawdust
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Re: Thompson Coaches

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The LNERCA has a full size drawing showing a full size section through the cant rail and lower roof. On it is marked the LNER loading gauge and another which I think is marked LMS. The Thompson roof touches this second gauge line, where as the LNER one is parallel to the roof profile with a few inches clearance. So when this drawing was produced, (it is an early BR drawing) the LNER loading gauge was larger than the LMS one.

So something must have changed around the time the Thompson's were introduced.

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Dave
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Re: Thompson Coaches

Post by Dave »

Out of interest, here is a part copy of LNER drwg 16543N Corridor 3rd Brake of 1945 which shows the so called Thompson bogie.
So far I've not come across any detail drawings for it.
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Re: Thompson Coaches

Post by 65447 »

sawdust wrote:The biggest change from the Gresley steel panelled stock is the body shape, which is wider at the cant rail. The LNER Gresley's seem to be built to a smaller loading gauge than the GNR ones.
As Jonathan says, the constituents had different loading gauges and naturally new stock had to fit where necessary within those with tighter limits - this is why boiler fittings were reduced in height (on the ex-GC locomotives in particular, but also on the GN 'Pacifics'). As work to eliminate the restrictive locations progressed, so the limits of the composite loading gauge could be relaxed accordingly; one result being the 3" increase in permitted carriage body width.

As to the differing profiles of the steel-panelled Gresley and Thompson stock, from the Diagrams:

Height to top of vents: G = 12' 10" T = 12' 10" (same)
Height to top of roof: G = 12' 6" T = 12' 6" (same)
Height to cornice: G = 10' 5 5/8" T = 10' 5 1/2" (T = 1/8" lower)
Width at cornices: G = 8' 10 1/2" T = 8' 9" (T = 1 1/2" narrower)
Width at waist: G = 8' 11 1/2" (over panels) T= 8' 11 1/4" (over panels) (T = 1/4" narrower)
Extreme width: G = 9' 3" T = 9' 3" (same)

So it appears that the Thompson NV stock was actually narrower at the cornices by 1 1/2" and at the waist by 1/4", but it clearly makes a visible difference in that the Thompsons appear 'fatter'.

The subsequent BR 'C1' profile was still a compromise, and subject to restrictions on certain lines.
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