Why

[LNERandBR]

I still think an A3 looks better without the deflectors.

And I'm only 18 so I've only seen one A3, Flying Scotsman. I've seen archive fottage and pictures so I still think the A3's looked better with the single chimney and smoke deflectors.

It isnt up to us. We can disscus this till the cows come home but its up to the NRM if she is to emerge in LNER Apple Green with the double chimmney and smoke deflectors we will have to put up with it.
If she emerges in BR Brunswick then we will have to put up with it.

[jdtoronto]

Certainly,

Baldwin were, I think, ahead of the game when they built the A-1's in 1898 I think it was. The Victorian S calss had a number of influences, the engineer was well aware of what Gresley was doing, but was also very up to date with the progress being made in Europe and the USA. Somewhere I have photos of the S as built, without the streamlining, although not needing deflectors as built originally, they had a number of modifications donein the early years and I have seen them fitted with deflectors. The streamlining is supposedly inspired by an American design.

The R class Hudsons were originally to be built in Melbourne also, but due to a number of difficulties they were eventually built in Glascow and shipped to Australia. They entered service in 1052 as I recall and most of them had done over 1.25 million miles before withdrawl. Originally intended for express passenger work they were displaced rather quickly by the B class diesels with in about three years and worked outheir lives hauling weight, egneral freight and other passenger services. One was still in revenue service as recently as only a couple of years ago, hauling a service from Melbourne to Warrnambool and return each Saturday. They are often seen on excursion trains.

As this thread is originally about 4472, you may care to look at this site:
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~ajh/trai ... sinoz.html
WHich has photographs taken during the 1988 visit of Flying Scotsman to Australia. SHe is shown in a number of locations near Melbourne where we still have broad gauge (5'3") and standard gauge (4'8.5") running in parallel. On that site you can find a photograph of 4472 having been turned on teh dual gauge turntable at Shepparton, R-761 having been turned a little earlier ont he same turntable.

John

[jdtoronto]

John,

You are suggesting that the design of the GNR A1 influenced the design of the Australian R class, this may well be true to some extent, but let's not forget that there were other greater influences at work in those days, and in any case until it benefited from GWR long travel valves, the A1 was a little mediocre although heavily promoted by LNER publicity officers. No, there were other influences at work

Pretty obvious! The A1/A3 was in service long before the R class which inly entered serive in 1952.

The S-class in "Spirit of Prgress" service were streamlined by 1937, and were a three cylinder design and by the time they got the streamlining I believe they had an exhaust which although never called Kylchap is somewhat similar, or at least gets the same results. If I recall my reading the S-class got deflectors when they got the new smokebox arrangement, but liost them, obviously, when streamlined.

Many of the Victorian steam locos got deflectors, in part because they had to use every trick to get efficiency up and the double flue exhaust was quite common. They used black coal which had to be transported about 1000km for fuelling the trains! Some of the R-class were converted to oil burning, butr I am not sure of the details.

In Victoria all we had was a rather dirty burning brown coal. It was such bad burning that we used electric loco's (overhead electric lines) to haul the coal from the open cut mines in the LaTrobe Valley to Melbourne.

John

[x568wcn]

As this thread is originally about 4472, you may care to look at this site:
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~ajh/trai ... sinoz.html
WHich has photographs taken during the 1988 visit of Flying Scotsman to Australia. SHe is shown in a number of locations near Melbourne where we still have broad gauge (5'3") and standard gauge (4'8.5") running in parallel. On that site you can find a photograph of 4472 having been turned on teh dual gauge turntable at Shepparton, R-761 having been turned a little earlier ont he same turntable.

John

The photos look good John, but when I try to enlarge they don't come up, it says it works on all browsers except Internet Explorer...guess What!

Never mind, I'll have to re install Netscape again!

Mark t

[John B]

Colombo and John,

Here's another picture of New Zealand Railways Ab class locomotives.
The Ab class was introduced in 1915 and was designed to the requirements of H. H. Jackson by the Chief Draughtsman, S. H. Jenkinson. It was a simple, superheated “Pacific” featuring the cylindrical Vanderbilt tender.

Ab 663.
Specifications:
Wheel Arrangement: 4-6-2
Weight in Working order: 86.8 tons
Cylinders: 17"x26"
Boiler Pressure: 180lbs

Here's another bit of streamlining on a class J1211, note the 4-8-2 wheel arrangement, the date manufactured would mean it could have derived influences from certain other designers operating at that time.

J1211.
Specifications:
Wheel Arrangement: 4-8-2
Weight: 108 tons
Cylinder: 18"x26"
Driving Wheel Dia: 54"
Length: 67'
Boiler Pressure: 200lbs
Year Built: 1939
Built By: North British

It was a well known fact that Gresley admired Andre Chapelon of the Paris Orleans Railway, both Gresley and Bulleid had extensive discussions with Chapelon on how to improve locomotive number 10000. He suggested re-superheating and fitting a Kylchap exhaust. Other European influences included the Italian 2-6-2's and 2-8-2's fitted with Zara bissel bogie (suggested to fix a riding problem on "Cock O' the North" when she visited France) Of course all British Pacifics must make reference to G. J. Churchward's "Great Bear" of 1908 as the first British pacific, this locomotive in turn owed it's origins to the four cylinder compound Atlantics of the French Nord Railway and designed by Gaston du Bousquet. Churchward ordered one of these engines in 1902 and later a further two of the larger Paris - Orleans Atlantics for comparative purposes.

Foreign influences abound in British loco design, what I like about most British designs though is their comparatively uncluttered appearance, clean, simple and graceful lines.

[cig1705]

British influence is probably best found in Indian locomotives built up to 1945 - Stanier, amongst others, worked there, whilst the XC class Pacific (built from 1928 or so onwards) has similarities with the A1/A3 design. Earlier designs - 0-6-0s and 4-4-0s - often bear similarities with pre-grouping British types - particularly GCR, since GCR engines were often the basis of Mancunian engines for export...

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Well, this is an entertaining thread. Thanks to Colombo for the clear explanation of why the Kylchap blastpipe needs smoke deflectors.

Just to answer Richard's point at the top of the thread, the first few GER 1500 class (LNER B12) engines came out in Royal Blue, but most of the class were finished in the GER's miserable wartime unlined grey until the LNER started building them. On the whole, I'd rather not see the survivor in blue, as she's been reboilered with the big boiler and round firebox, and is distinctively "LNER". I would like to see someone build a 1900 class (LNER D15) Claud Hamilton as original and paint her blue.

4472 is a special case: LNER green and deflectors is fine by me.