Guard's Brake Coach door handle orientation

[gdb]

I think it is a water filler pipe for the water tank to the toilet. If you look on the roof above you can see the tank overflow and filler cap just above and to the right.

Gents,

The pipe on the roof is actually the toilet cistern vent pipe (as already mentioned the water tank overflows through the opposite filler pipe).

Thank you for correcting my understanding of the upside-down "U-bend" over the toilet compartment. Now if that pipe is a vent for the cistern... why are there several such pipes over some toilet compartments? (the most which I have seen is three "U-bends" on one of the Gresleys on the NYMR).

thank you, Graham Beare

[4493]

Graham,

Three vent pipes I'm not sure, two is easy! The TTO,s have two lavatories at one end hence two vents together. It may be that the same vent pipe is used for other purposes (water heating and gas appliances) so catering vehicles may have more, the LNERCA fleet has to comply with modern gas regulations so some vents may not be "genuine" LNER. Also there is more than one type of vent some drawings show a simple domed pipe fitting without the potruding U bend pipe.

Which vehicle has three? I will try to remember to investigate when at Pickering again.

[gdb]

Graham,

Three vent pipes I'm not sure, two is easy! The TTO,s have two lavatories at one end hence two vents together. It may be that the same vent pipe is used for other purposes (water heating and gas appliances) so catering vehicles may have more, the LNERCA fleet has to comply with modern gas regulations so some vents may not be "genuine" LNER. Also there is more than one type of vent some drawings show a simple domed pipe fitting without the potruding U bend pipe.

Which vehicle has three? I will try to remember to investigate when at Pickering again.

The photos which show three vents around one water filler can be found on a RM Web thread "Gresley Underframes" in the Prototypical Questions sub-forum. Mike Trice posted the photos to the thread on 20th March.... see photos 100_2006 and 100_2016. Whilst not identified in the thread Mike advised privately that the carriages were on the NYMR. As I am not familiar with the inside of the Gresley coaches I shall be pleased to hear about what fitments are within a toilet compartment (other than the cistern / closet).

thank you and regards, Graham Beare

[MikeTrice]

Photo as referenced:

It is the passenger end of 43567.

[MikeTrice]

Curiouser and curiouser.

The two vents nearest the camera will be the vents for the toilet cisterns. So what is the third vent for?

Just to muddy the waters I have found a GA for an Open Third which shows a vent to the boiler (the vents are all to the same design). So what boiler is this? This raises another interesting sidetrack, how is the hot water supply provided to the wash basins. I guess steam is passed through a heat exchanger somewhere to heat the water, but this is pure guesswork on my part.

There have been some references to occassions when an end torpedo vent is offset from the usual centre line position. In some cases the water tank has an offset tube through it to provide the airflow from the vent into the toilet compartment. But not always. In a GA for a corridor composite the header tank is smaller allowing air to circulate around it. In this instance the torpedo vent is central but the internal opening is offset.

[4493]

Mike/Graham,

I think you have answered your own question here, the third vent is for the water heaters. The heat exchangers are fitted inside the wooden pedestal under each toilet wash basin, the steam supply comes up through the floor. I stand correcting here but I think the earlier compartment stock had a different design heater to the later tourist stock as no roof vent or associated pipework is shown on the toilet drawings.

Marcus

[65447]

This is another paragraph from Norman Newsome's Paper which immediately precedes the one posted earlier:

"As new designs were completed a great deal of attention was paid to detail. The developments in this direction included a change over to “Alpax” light alloy for vacuum and steam hose couplings and other interior fittings, the installation of electric water heaters in the steam heated Stills’ water boilers under the wash bowls in lavatories, which could be switched in during the summer months when steam was not available for heating purposes, and water valves operated by push button control."

Unfortunately no dates are given, but the subsequent paragraph describes Bulleid's design of the 'upside-down' clothes hangers for sleepers which happened between 1924 and 1927 according to F A S Brown. From that I surmise that the 'new designs' referred to are the LNER standard designs and the period the early years of Grouping.

Could a third pipe be a vent from the boiler, to release any excess pressure?

[gdb]

The two vents nearest the camera will be the vents for the toilet cisterns. So what is the third vent for?

Just to muddy the waters I have found a GA for an Open Third which shows a vent to the boiler (the vents are all to the same design). So what boiler is this? This raises another interesting sidetrack, how is the hot water supply provided to the wash basins. I guess steam is passed through a heat exchanger somewhere to heat the water, but this is pure guesswork on my part.

There have been some references to occassions when an end torpedo vent is offset from the usual centre line position. In some cases the water tank has an offset tube through it to provide the airflow from the vent into the toilet compartment. But not always. In a GA for a corridor composite the header tank is smaller allowing air to circulate around it. In this instance the torpedo vent is central but the internal opening is offset.

Mike - how relevant is the diagram of the corridor composite above to D175?

Mike/Graham,

I think you have answered your own question here, the third vent is for the water heaters. The heat exchangers are fitted inside the wooden pedestal under each toilet wash basin, the steam supply comes up through the floor. I stand correcting here but I think the earlier compartment stock had a different design heater to the later tourist stock as no roof vent or associated pipework is shown on the toilet drawings.

Marcus

Mike and Marcus, thank you for your contributions to establishing the purpose of the "upside down" U-bends. If I may step back a moment and take stock of what has been written.... let us consider the case for a carriage with a toilet at one end, such as a D114. There is just the one toilet compartment. one water tank, one closet and cistern - the consensus seems to be saying that there should be one vent pipe for that water system. Where is that vent pipe, on the roof, in relation to the toilet bowl?

Assuming that there is one wash basin per toilet compartment, would that basin have hot and cold taps? I presume that there would be no need for a heat exchanger if there was no hot water to the basin.... so when was hot water available for the wash basin?

When a wash basin has hot water, with the heat exchanger under the basin, where is the vent pipe in relation to the wash basin?

And finally, if there is one vent per cistern and one vent per water heater, then one would expect to see four vents on an end-vestibule open carriage rather than the three which appears in Mike's photo (and thank you Mike for posting the referenced photo here). Or maybe there is just one water heater for the two toilets?

regards, Graham

[MikeTrice]

The drawing shows a single central vent going through the roof and then joining a "T" piece which goes to two boilers. There is mention in Harris' book to different heating systems available including steam pipe fed, electrical/pressure ventilated and a Stone's system. I would guess then that specific arrangements might depend on the system fitted.

The drawings do not give diagram references.

4493 & 65447, many thanks for your feedback which is invaluable.

[65447]

Mike,

Vey pleased to be able to input to this sort of discussion. Whilst John Edgson and Nick Campling have most ably provided us with drawings, and Michael Harris and Chris Bishop with build and allocation details, there is very little in print thus far on the nitty gritty bits and bobs of LNER carriages. For example, the query that 'Dave' posted in a separate thread in this area concerning flat and domed ends to vacuum reservoir cylinders. We know that there were different types and sizes of battery boxes, at some time voltage regulators were fitted to the charging circuits, differences to buffers, underframe construction (queen post/truss rod cf angle truss), solebars (bulb angle cf rolled section) and so on, some of which have been discussed above. It would be good to be able to work through these, summarising and collating the results in one place.

Apropos the the hot water supply in toilets, David Jenkinson on pp.57-8 of his (combined volume) The History of British Railway Carriages 1900 - 1953, Pendragon 1996, includes a photograph of a 1914 GNR/ECJS lavatory and a diagram of the piping arrangements for the wash-basin from the same period. This is when the water was heated solely by the carriage steam heating pipes. Of interest is the waste steam pipe that runs vertically into the roof void before being routed back down the corner of the lavatory by the wash-basin to vent underfloor. That's not to say that the arrangement wasn't subsequently changed when the water heaters were fitted...