LNER Locomotives that never were

[73D]

Mark I know you have spent a bit of time on you drawing of 2509, but as I expect you realise it has a lot of inaccuracies. To correct things I have uploaded a couple of low-resolution versions of line drawings I have produced of Silver Link and its tender in the condition it achieved 112mph on September 27th 1935.

These drawings are part of a set produced showing the A4s through their working life. These are being used to produce side elevation illustrations for sale. A lot of work has gone into these for commercial use, but I thought releasing Silver Link in low-res, wouldn’t harm!

[Saint Johnstoun]

I supplied Mark with mono outlines of the A4s for him to colour in. I would point out that unlike those splendid artist's impressions from Locos in Profile my drawings were basically intended as mono line artwork and I have not provided colour versions as with my Bus and Tram graphics. Colouring in my type of drawing is a challenging exercise - that's why I haven't taken that route yet. The amount of black on a locomotive requires special treatment!

I would say that as far as accuracy of the line drawings goes I try and achieve a high standard, but when it comes to colouring them in.......!!

[73D]

I just wanted to show that the line work it was based on is not correct for the subject chosen. The first one, Silver Link being quite distinctive with its straight handrail and access doors that go to the bottom of the boiler casing. The first four also have unique smokeboxes made up from more metal plates than the rest of the class – they remained like this until withdrawal. 2509, as built, also had access panels above the buffers – I assume to allow withdrawal of the piston valves. The front valance sheets were altered on the following three to allow ‘easy’ removed.

The one thing I have left off my drawing of 2509 are the bolt holes left after the removal of the cast nameplate, but still visible in pictures of the Press Run

If I may kindly point out (please I’m not tying to be awkward) that the drawing Mark’s illustration is based on is a hybrid, with no A4 actually appearing in this condition – ignoring the livery. The changes the A4s went through during there lives means that you need a good number of drawings. This is ignoring the tenders to go with them! I have eight drawings covering the tenders, although not one for the 1948 exchange modifications.

It would be good to get these things as correct as possible on an LNER Forum even, as I know, Mark's exercise is a bit of fun. Someone may see it who doesn’t know the subject and take it as gospel.

For black I find that using a dark grey, which can be seen against a black keyline, is quite acceptable. That is what I do with my line drawings.

Hope you take these comments in the correct way.

[Saint Johnstoun]

Producing drawings of a particular class of locomotives is like crossing a minefield as there are so many variations and every member of the class can finish up with slight differences. One only has to look at the models on my 00 layout to realise that Hornby and Bachmann have had to compromise (although the models get better and better with even minor differences covered) so when it comes to a drawing I suspect that there could be hundreds of variations on the A4s alone.
It is a question as to whether when making such artwork available for download that one does indicate whether this is a representative drawing or a snapshot of a particular member of a particular class at a specific moment in time.

The problem is magnified when one moves from mono reproductions to liveried examples as that adds to the variations.

ATC

[73D]

The problem is that in producing a generic member of a class you fall between all stalls. The A4s like most classes went through set alterations, with a few being odd balls, such as 2509!

I think that you can give a feel of a class evolving through a few well-chosen examples. For instance for the A4s I have drawn-up the following members.

1935 - 2509 Silver Link – as built
1937 - 2512 Silver Fox – fitted with longer buffers
1937 - 4491 Commonwealth of Australia – extra cab ventilator
1938 - 4468 Mallard – access panels with single handles, double chimney and modified valence plates
1939 - 4468 Sir Nigel Gresley – modified single chimney and extra smokebox access door
1951 - 60007 Merlin – valance removed, bogie with side checks and middle drain-pipe diverted to outside. 60007 was still fitted with early front valve slides at this time.
1961 – 60025 Falcon – modified double chimney, front guard iron removed and drain pipes cut-back, BR rods plus AWS and speedo.

This covers most of the changes that occurred - ignoring liveries and more minor changes, such as drop link and small end lubrication, for which I have found five variations!

The problems of finding out what happened when is probably the reason mainstream model makers base their wares on persevered members. I expect we shall see a model of Bittern appear soon with BR drain cocks!

[Wainwright]

Picking up the 'If Robinson was CME' line, I think the LNER would have more likely ended up with belpaire, parallel-boilered 2 cylinder 4-8-0s (or maybe 4-cylinder compounds?) rather than 3 cylinder 4-6-2s.

I can't entirely see Robinson producing a Pacific tender engine, left to his own devices. The A1s might have stayed as a glorious isolated moment, mainly working KX-York expresses...

I also wonder if he might have modified and adopted the NBR 4-4-2s (based loosely, after all, on his own practice) as the standard mid-rank passenger engine?

[Saint Johnstoun]

Wise words, Richard. I could be kept busy for ever doing all the alterations necessary though!

Its amazing, that despite all the books written and published on the A4s, that nobody has yet laid out the changes and variations in a way that is easy for the non technical, average enthusiast to understand. So often in my writings I find that some fail to grasp what I take for granted as simple.

I can cope with the technical, having had an engineering background at one time, but for many, technical detail leaves them cold, let alone the raison d' etre behind such as were the changes to the A4s through their working lives for example.

The trouble is, at the end of the day, you cannot often divorce the technical from the aesthetic. Reminds me a bit of Gilbert & Sullivan's "Patience".

[hq1hitchin]

Keep going as you are, please, Saint Johnstoun, absolutely no co complaints here!

Where else coud we have seen such a fine drawing of the 4-8-2?

Best leave the rivet counters to their own devices

[silver fox]

Can I just say that to everyone but those whome worked in Doncaster works circa 1935 through 1938, would take my effort as Silver Link!

And for the rivit counter, I bet there ain't the right amount, and for the record, I did do some touching up on the drawing!

[73D]

Saint Johnstoun I couldn’t agree with you more about the way books on locomotive history are written. They are mostly a re-hash of previous books repeating the same mistakes - perhaps I’m being a bit harsh here!

Having now produced drawings for a number of classes I have been amazed at what is not mentioned, which when you study pictures changes can clearly be seen. Reading your last post you seem to be like me and want to know why things were changed and find it fascinating. Knowing these things makes the evolution of design come alive. Form follows Function

As you say it should feasible to layout the basic changes to a class, so it is easy to follow. I have had to produce my own spreadsheets so I can easily find out the condition of a locomotive at any given time.

Irwell’s ‘Book of’ series is good if they have the Record Cards include, but they do need a bit of deciphering. It was through studying these that I realised that a lot of misinformation exists about the Princess Coronations!

The problem is publishers are looking to produce a product as cheaply as possible, with lots of pretty pictures. What I would like to see is a lot more detail pictures used, but the trouble is people think these are boring!
The best books on locomotives are definitely the LMS Profile series.

As for the rivet counter comments perhaps we should take this to its logical conclusion and just paint a generic locomotive in LNER, LMS, GWR, SR colours. Please take this comment in fun!

Regarding the A4s anyone know why the USA style front valve slide appeared from 4462 onwards. I have NEVER read anything about the change and why it was made.

[Saint Johnstoun]

Here is the 1930s proposal by Gresley to rebuild the C7 Atlantics with conjugated valve gear. It was not carried forward as the V2s were found to be capable of doing much of the work that the C7s had been allocated.

[wehf100]

That rebuilt C7 is a remarkably handsom machine I think.

If you're doing requests, have you any means of drawing the ideas Robinson had for

i) a 'super director' enlarged in all boiler dimensions but on same wheelbase
ii) a 2-10-2 mineral engine based on US practice but with typical Robinson flourish.

Both were drawn around 1919 I think and the very bare bones of the latter are included in Dow's GCR book. I would loved to have seen a 'real' 2-10-2 on British rails!!!

Will

[Saint Johnstoun]

I will do these two for you in due course. I have outlines of both on file.

Did you know that Gresley proposed a 2-10-2 before the P1s were finalised - again this is one I will post in due course.

[60114]

These drawings are supurb, perhaps add some dimensions i could build them for Train Simulator and Train Simulator X and perhaps Kuju Rail Sim

Best Wishes

Mike

[Saint Johnstoun]

If you print these out at 32% you get them at 4mm scale. Don't forget there are some BR, LMS and GWR proposed designs in the general chat section.