A4s in purple - source of photographs

[73D]

I thought I would do a bit of rough experimentation with this colour scheme, which are below, and I'm leaning towards it being the blue used by Caledonian's St Rollox works. What we have to bear in mind is that LMS people had a lot of the top jobs at this time and their careers went back to pre-groupng times, so trying LNWR lining on Caledonian Blue seems feasible.

BR-Experimental-Blue-(Ultramarine).gif (5.07 KiB) Viewed 4288 times

BR-Experimental-Blue-(St-Rollox).gif (5.07 KiB) Viewed 4288 times

Please note that these representations are approximate. The St Rollox blue is based on preserved 828.

I leave it up to you to decide.

[richard]

And accurate colours on a web page are such a dodgy area! When it came to describing liveries, I didn't even try.
Even with a calibrated screen (which virtually no one does), the above differences are very subtle. They are also been represented on an emmissive display when the paints are reflective/absorptive colours.

Failing the discovery of a BR Purple panel in the NRM, I think it is a 'lost' shade that we can only guess at.

[Saint Johnstoun]

Beware the Caledonian Blue - This varied considerably over the years and one of the problems was coverage using dark blue pigments so Perth mixed in white to give better coverage and created the famous sky blue. Caley locos varied from the dark ultramarine applied by Armstrong Whotworth on the Pickersgill 4-4-0s to that very pale shade just described.

The later blue with black and white lining certainly had more of a Caley touch to it, but the experimental 'purple' seems to have little or no connection to previous applications - perhaps it was somebody's idea to get away from what had been before?

[Tony.]

Another model i found

[60800]

That's the regular express passenger blue, not experimental purple

[Tony.]

Its purple, not blue just the way the photo looks

[73D]

As I said in the my post they are only indications, but I must admit that I didn't check the result after the files had been uploaded, which has made them a lot lighter! I have now adjusted them so they now look nearer to the colours I wanted.

Beware the Caledonian Blue - This varied considerably over the years and one of the problems was coverage using dark blue pigments so Perth mixed in white to give better coverage and created the famous sky blue. Caley locos varied from the dark ultramarine applied by Armstrong Whotworth on the Pickersgill 4-4-0s to that very pale shade just described.

The later blue with black and white lining certainly had more of a Caley touch to it, but the experimental 'purple' seems to have little or no connection to previous applications - perhaps it was somebody's idea to get away from what had been before?

I didn't mention Perth Blue, it is based on St Rollox Blue and as we know Caledonian locos were painted in various shades of Blue from something close to Prussian Blue (not Dark Ultramarine) to the light Perth Blue. As you say BR Standard Blue was described as Perth Blue by commentators at the time.

And accurate colours on a web page are such a dodgy area! When it came to describing liveries, I didn't even try.
Even with a calibrated screen (which virtually no one does), the above differences are very subtle. They are also been represented on an emmissive display when the paints are reflective/absorptive colours.

Failing the discovery of a BR Purple panel in the NRM, I think it is a 'lost' shade that we can only guess at.

The fact that Ultramarine and St Rollox Blue are close was the reason for putting them-up and suggesting that this may have been the 'missing' colour.

Its purple, not blue just the way the photo looks

Don't get to tied to what some people term as 'purple' the correct description is Experimental Dark Blue.

The Experimental BR liveries (minus Apple Green of course) are covered at some length in LMS Locomotive Profile No.11 as they were applied to the Duchesses.

[giner]

Fact is, while in these days we have the luxuries of computerised colour matching, back then it was very much an 'eyeball' thing. Eyeballs, then as now, differ and, as was mentioned earlier, unless an original purple panel turns up, it's all conjecture (within a given range).

73D said, "I have now adjusted them so they now look nearer to the colours I wanted." That pretty much sums it up, go with what looks closest to you. His eyeballs will be different again from mine, yours, and everyone else's.

And as Richard mentioned, colours on a webpage are a dodgy proposition. Ask any graphic designer. We've all seen examples of this in magazines and newspapers where some ads. become almost unreadable because the final printing was nowhere close to what the designer saw on his monitor.

[S.A.C. Martin]

Just picked up one of the Hornby "Merlins" off eBay today - regardless of whether the shade is accurate, Hornby picked a nice shade of blue for theirs! I think I am right in saying I will need to add a white line to the parabolic curve though.

It's one of those liveries for which there will always be debate about the exact shade. I understand its technical name is blue, but there are so many anecdotes about a "purplish tinge" to the paintwork both on here, other forums, and in scores of books describing it that they all cannot be wrong? It stands to reason it must have been a dark blue and there a purplish tinge is likely. We probably shouldn't forget that it may also depend on the undercoats applied prior to the top coats of blue, and then there's the layers of varnish to consider also.

Educated guesses like Hornby's interpretation of this livery are fine, it's the clearly never happened shades like Royal Scot's current "LMS Pink" that irk most on the eye, particularly when you look at Duchess of Hamilton's fine shade and finish.

[60800]

Its purple, not blue just the way the photo looks

It can't be. The lining is wrong and it clearly has the early BR crest on the tender

[Saint Johnstoun]

Although I was pre-school age I well remember seeing A4s and A3s going through Falkirk High Station in the late 1940s - early 1950s and I remember three distinct variations on the blue theme, there was the original Garter Blue, the Blue with black and white lining as used as standard on A3s, A4s, Duchesses, Princess Coronations, Kings, and Merchant Navies for a short time. The other variation was of course the experimental dark blue which to my eye was darker than the later colour and had a slight 'red' tinge to it. Bear in mind that the application of lining can alter the eye's perception of a colour, indeed the applicaton of orange and grey lining could easily affect this, the colour is not easy to match to anything I can identify in this current age.

[73D]

Although I was pre-school age I well remember seeing A4s and A3s going through Falkirk High Station in the late 1940s - early 1950s and I remember three distinct variations on the blue theme, there was the original Garter Blue, the Blue with black and white lining as used as standard on A3s, A4s, Duchesses, Princess Coronations, Kings, and Merchant Navies for a short time. The other variation was of course the experimental dark blue which to my eye was darker than the later colour and had a slight 'red' tinge to it. Bear in mind that the application of lining can alter the eye's perception of a colour, indeed the applicaton of orange and grey lining could easily affect this, the colour is not easy to match to anything I can identify in this current age.

It has always intrigued me that it is only the A4s that are referred to as being Purple as the other region's locomotives are said to be Dark Blue, although it is the same paint! As the BR experimental colour schemes generally used previous railway company colours it seems odd that this one was completely new. Like yourself I think the blue veered towards red and the red lining accentuated it, hence my suggestion of the source.

I keep forgetting that very few people bother to adjust their monitors (I'm always amazed at what friends of mine are happy to put up with) so apologies for that. I should have realised as I know how difficult it is to portray colours even on an adjusted screen!

Now who's up for a debate on the change that happened to BR Green, caused by the use of ICI's Monastral Blue pigment, in the late 50s