coachbuilding and teak

[sawdust]

Whilst we're talking about timber, I thought ash was a favourite for use in frames?

It is in road vehicles but I've never come across it in railway coach bodies. Ash is not very rot resistant and is also tasty to woodworm. My father had to replace quite a lot of ash frame restoring his second Allard car. The one place I have come across ash being specified was for the frames for the bucket seats.

Sawdust.

[john coffin]

interesting guys, and good to see such a wide spread of knowledge, although some interesting assumptions, many of which i might have
made before my studies.
interestingly, teak was not "technically known" until linneaus the younger reported it as a specific species in 1782, but i am sure that the asian locals used if before we knew about it. it is true that the gn specified a particular type of teak, but this is indeginous to northern india, and what became bangladesh, as well as burma.
the first recorded usage in a boat that came to england that i could find, was one built for the east india company in about 1812. At this time, because of the napoleonic wars, the admiralty still held a monopoly over hardwoods, even imported ones. but if as is suggested they preferred oak, then many of the other timbers would have, if cheap enough been used in other things.
although it is true that walter williams built the first carriages used on the gnr, whilst joseph wright, whose company became metropolitan, built carriages out of teak too. i can find no record of walter williams actually using teak in his road carriages, but am again, keen to be shown a source material. as for oak in gnr carriages, it was specified as american white oak. amazing what you can learn from a simple coach
paul

[john coffin]

also it is worth remembering that actually wood for use as ballast is a lot younger than we might think.
basically when the east india company was trading, it exported finished products from england, and brought back raw, but mainly "high value" items from india, ie diamonds, gold, and so on.
the wood import trade is interesting to understand, for instance we tend to think that agincourt was won by english archers using english bows and arrows, yet the arrows were imported in vast numbers from spain, in part because much of our wood had been destroyed by the normans in building their early castles. also even that early wood was being imported as a cash cargo, from the baltic ports.

certainly, the pre gresley carriages had teak frames and panels, plus beading. american oak underframes and floor boards, plus pitch pine roof boards. so it is clear that at that time, the components must have been pretty cheap to be imported and sold on at a cost that was competitive. walter williams advertised that his carriages took only a couple of weeks to build and send out, whilst painted carriages could take up to 3 months because of drying times etc.

great what you learn when you ignore the railway books and look into real history

paul

[notascoobie]

In marine usage Burma teak is considered the most rotproof timber available and I believe this would have affected the railway co.'s choice of teak over the drier mahogany....it is still in marine use(leisure largely) though seldom genuine Burma unless recycled though allegedly some new yacht builds have been done in Myanmar as I believe it is now known,apparently because the regime will supply teak,whilst afaik it is illegal to import it to say UK or US for use there.Probably its or its substitutes most typical modern usage is as decorative veneer on cabin panelling etc or "laid teak" whereby thinnish strips resembling planking are inlaid on the decks of GRP yachts,it provides excellent anti-slip,is usually left untreated for that purpose thus turns grey fairly rapidly.Famously Cutty Sark was teak planked on iron frames....interesting about Teak built menowar though Colombo.....it makes sense...at a guess mahogany would have been worse...both teak and mahogany are lighter than oak IIRC so hence their usage for performance ships like clippers and racing yachts.
It is notoriously difficult to paint or varnish as it is a very oily wood(hence its rot resistance)esp with modern poly materials...traditional boatbuilding varnishes containing Tung oil are I think recommended and Teak specific marine varnish used be available.This probably explains why teak coaches often did their best to shrug off BR paint!...I always think it a good choice that the GN,LNER etc choose to varnish teak,it is easier than painting and they must have been aware of the aesthetic impact of this beautiful wood....I remember seeing the schedule for overhauling LNER coaches at works once and noted Oxalic acid was used to clean and restore colour on the stripped teak...it is still used in proprietory marine "teak cleaners" for decks.Then IIRC 15 coats of varnish!(I was brought up on 7 coats but that probably has more to do with superstition than science!)
Re the oak framing again this echoes boatbuilding practice....two classic combinations are "mahagony on oak" and "pitchpine on oak" denoting firstly the planking then the framing....and IIRC some other of the constituents used mahogany panelling for coaches?
Once again drawing on some rather dim memories oak possibly offers greater resistance to splitting when nailed or drilled for fasteners and thereafter and was thus considered more suitable for frames?Wouldn't take an oath on this but its in my head from somewhere....!

As always with natural materials that will have been down to the environment in which it was grown - minerals in the soil, rainfall etc.

Surely beer and whisky are good examples of this?

I have heard similar stories about the qualities of teak [vs oak and others]. Further to Columbo's comment, I heard the shipyards also tried building ships from pine, particularly during and after the American war of 1812-14 when the British Admiralty was desperately searching for an answer to the American 'spar-decked' frigates. (But that's another story!)

Whilst we're talking about timber, I thought ash was a favourite for use in frames?

To join the boatbuilding discussion if I may, I agree with everything Rob has stated. I'd just like to add that teak is a lovely wood to work but it blunts your tools and you are constantly having to use the stone. In answer to Autocar's question about the use of ash for framing, I'd say that green oak is most often used for steamed frames, while dry oak is good for sawn or grown frames. I havaguely remember being told at college that ash is a very poor boatbuilding wood because it rots readily. Certainly there was not a single lump anywhere in the workshop.

Teak's ability to withstand the weather and the harshest environment is borne out by it's remaining in favour for the decks of wooden vessels.

Back to playing trains.

Regards,

Vernon

[john coffin]

morgan used ash, and i think the morris minor estate also used ash. mainly because it was easy to get in straight lengths, and not much use in cabinet making or internal joinery.

according to wb adams, certainly states that ash was used in the frames of road carriages during the 1830's, but also mentions beech, elm and oak for certain parts. oak in particular for the spokes of wheels. mahogany was used for the carriage panels, which sadly, were often painted as with the later railway carriages, deal was also used for flooring.

he also states that the increase in construction of railway carriages means that there was a scarcity of "ordinary timber" to such an extent that chetnut, sycamore and plane was used too.

the other interesting thing in this search has been to discover that the carriage is actually properly the underframe, whilst the body was always called the body! just goes to show how words have their usage changed by common usage.

paul

[Autocar Publicity]

I believe ash was also used to make arrow shafts where obviously, straight lengths were vital, for the English longbows, for which I've heard Italian yew was the favourite material.

I should have been a bit clearer when I made my comment about frames, I have heard it was used commonly in road vehicles, including buses, but I wasn't so sure about railway vehicles. After the last few posts, I guess it was just road vehicles that used it - but if it was out of favour with railway joiners and boatbuilders due to a tendency to rot, why use it in road vehicles? I would have thought they would have been exposed to just as much damp as railway coaches? Even when they were housed in garages overnight/out of service, when they were out on the roads in wet weather, moisture would have got in. Different maintenance regime?

I have certainly heard of teak being used for decks on sailing vessels, from small yachts to larger [commercial] ships, and some small leisure craft still use it for their deck planking. I think the East India Company used teak in their ships to save on maintenance costs and time in dockyards (when the hull would not be earning revenue).

[Wavey]

but if it was out of favour with railway joiners and boatbuilders due to a tendency to rot, why use it in road vehicles? I would have thought they would have been exposed to just as much damp as railway coaches? Even when they were housed in garages overnight/out of service, when they were out on the roads in wet weather, moisture would have got in. Different maintenance regime?

Possibly it was due to weight considerations? Ash probably lighter and less dense than teak and more suitable for building frame members in narrower sections due to straight grain. Road vehicles would have needed to be light as possible due to low powered petrol engines of the day.
Teak would not be good for frame members in narrower section as mentioned earlier it can be brittle.

[john coffin]

i think part of the reason for using ash on road vehicles was in fact to do with its springiness. it is important to remember how bad roads were before macadamisation, whereas railways were pretty flat and level, also actually it is clear that suspension on railway carriages was better designed than road springs on carriages, certainly if w.b. adams is anything to go by

as for oak, it is important to remember that it would be difficult to use as an unpainted surface in the old days, because it reacts badly to steel, so black marks would be prominent. which is why gn carriages had metal sheets over the outside of the frames.

paul

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

Also remember that few cars are built to last more than a few years. The idea was you bought one, ran it till the body was rotten and the mechanicals worn out then scrapped it and replaced it. I believe it is called "designed obsoloescence."

In the 1950s, admittedly after the use of timber frames for cars had ceased in the main, Ford, General Motors and Chrysler were all designing their cars for a working life of just 3 years, a state of affairs that continued until the late '70s - early '80s when the Japanese started using decent quality metal properly prepared and with decent anti-rust treatments applied in the factory.

Even in the good ol' days pre-WW2, cars rarely lasted more than about 10 years before major rebuilds were required, hence one presumes the use of ash for framing.

[john coffin]

having spent the afternoon at kew, i wonder how many people have actually read any of the gnr minutes, rather than relying on
wrottesley, or brown for the interpretation thereof???

almost all of the initial teak was called moulin, but from northern india.

paul

[2512silverfox]

Have read most of the early minutes while researching Gresleys Coaches back in the 60s. Moulmein is a city on the southern tip of Burma and that was specified as the original source of GNR teak, not India.

[Ocean Swell]

In regard to the use of Ash in, the advantages of this wood along with it being springy as noted, is that it is lightweight and is easily bent to shape. My uncle is a wooden shipwright restoring Thames Sailing Barges and Essex Fishing Smacks and similar. I worked with him for a couple of years and the only thing we ever used Ash for was mast hoops. Thin formers would be placed around the mast and thin strip of ash would be heated with a hot airgun and wrapped around the the formers 4 times creating a laminate. It then would be fastened with a pair of copper nails and laquered and varnished many times. A strip about 40mm wide and 8mm thick and could easily be bent into a perfect circle at least as small as 240mm diameter. Just an interesting observation regarding working with Ash for those interested.

For work on hulls frames etc. we would use, Oak, Larch, Pitch Pine etc. depending on cost and availability. The demolition of old warves and jetties were always and excellent source of wood.

[65447]

Whilst we're talking about timber, I thought ash was a favourite for use in frames?

It is in road vehicles but I've never come across it in railway coach bodies. Ash is not very rot resistant and is also tasty to woodworm. My father had to replace quite a lot of ash frame restoring his second Allard car. The one place I have come across ash being specified was for the frames for the bucket seats.

Sawdust.

The NER used ash (and steel angles) for the roof sticks of carriages, presumably because of its pliability.

[john coffin]

silver fox, i understand, and know where moulmein is, but it is interesting that there is a statement in some of what i saw about
east indian teak in 1849, and since the genus from the swedes, is the same, it is an interesting area of study.

paul

[2512silverfox]

Burma is (or was historically) in the East Indies!