How far did Brake Vans travel?

[billbedford]

1/ Some goods brake vans became common user in, I believe, 1941. This certainly applied to 20 ton vans with duckets.
2/ Dukinfield works closed in 1938 and the stock they were responsible for maintenance was transferred, mainly to Doncaster, but some went to Stratford and Cowlairs.

[65447]

1/ Some goods brake vans became common user in, I believe, 1941. This certainly applied to 20 ton vans with duckets.

I stated pooled from 1942 in an earlier post Bill.

[Graeme Leary]

Great series of recollections but pray tell this colonial - what is a 'secondman'? Surely he didn't only make the tea!
Graeme

[manna]

G'day Gents

A 'Secondman' was BR's new name for a Fireman, or trainee driver.

manna

[Mickey]

Great series of recollections but pray tell this colonial - what is a 'secondman'? Surely he didn't only make the tea!
Graeme

As manna said a 'Secondman' was the name BR gave to usually a young bloke who would have been called a Fireman in steam days and apart from yes making a 'can of tea' for his driver and himself all secondmen did have a few other duties to know about and perform.

Usually secondmen would operate and look after the diesel locos steam heating boiler of which there was several different types on BR (Spanner, Stones & Clayton boilers) also secondmen would have to know how to 'go between trains' and couple up & uncouple locos to & from trains and to & from other locos and not just the couplings but the different brake pipes as well i.e. Vacuum & Air pipes, the Main Air Reservoir pipe plus the Jumper cable and also the steam pipes. Kings Cross & Hitchin secondmen when working on the Cambridge train diagrams into GE territory it was also the secondman's job to couple up & uncouple the loco to & from the train at Cambridge station cos on the GER it was the secondman's job to do that duty on the GNR we had shunter's (a bloke) to do that job. Also secondmen had to know a certain amount of the BR Rule Book especially the sections about Train Working & Handsignals and also how to perform Train Protection in the event of a accident and protecting the obstruction of the running lines. Finally secondmen as manna said were 'tomorrows drivers' in training and most drivers back in BR days would let there secondman do a bit of driving when 'out on the road' so when it was time for the secondman to 'go up for driving' to become a driver in there own right they already knew a vast amount of practicable knowledge about the job plus if they were staying at the depot or shed that they were a secondman at usually by then they knew all the routes, signals & gradients (road knowledge) that they were required to know & sign off as a driver.

During the 1970s a secondman had to do atleast a mimimum of 2 years as a secondman before he could 'go up for driving' but usually most secondmen around the country did around 4-5 years as a secondman before going up for driving, at some northern depots there were some older secondmen who had been firemen on BR during the early/mid-1960s who were still secondmen in the mid 1970s.

These days as could be expected it's completely different how train drivers become train drivers and how they are trained. Nowadays train drivers are both men & women and are usually taken 'off the street' and put through a 'train drivers course' that lasts for a number of months before they are passed out as a 'train driver' and are out driving trains.

Some people back in the day use to scoff at 'secondmen' but ulitmately many of them became good drivers for BR during the 1970s & 1980s.


Mickey A former Kings Cross & Stratford secondman during the 1970s.

[Graeme Leary]

Many thanks mickey - now possibly 'secondmen' could be my specialist subject for Mastermind!
Graeme

[Mickey]

You never know Graeme?.

Actually I enjoyed my time as a secondman back in the 1970s they were good times I use to like riding on the Brush type 2s (class 31s) when I was at Kings Cross & Stratford. I believe BR abolished the position of 'secondman' sometime around the early/mid 1980s when driver only operation was adopted along with 'flexable rostering' and guards on freightliner trains were done away with along with the abolition of running loose coupled goods trains anymore on BR, the mid/late 1980s were 'changing times' on britains railways.


Mickey

[StevieG]

[ Getting way off-topic here, but ...] Wasn't it secondmen who later still got re-titled Driver's Assistants Mickey ?

[Mickey]

[ Getting way off-topic here, but ...] Wasn't it secondmen who later still got re-titled Driver's Assistants Mickey ?

Yes I believe your correct Stevie the grade of 'Secondman' was changed to 'Drivers Assistant' sometime during the early 1980s although I was back in the signalling grade at the start of 1980 so I wasn't directly involved in the loco anymore although I presume the change was done obviously to reflect the 'gender neutral' policy adopted by British Rail of equal status between men & women anyway the grade of 'Drivers Assistant' didn't last to long and was eventually abolished altogether later on in the 1980s when Drivers Assistants were themselves abolished. We had a similar thing happen in the signalling grade back in the early 2000s when the old railway name of 'Signalman' was abolished and replaced by the non-gender specific title of Signaller. Mention of the name Signaller reminds me of a rumour about 5-6 years ago that the name 'Signaller' was it's self going to be changed to the American term 'Train Dispatcher' but so far it hasen't happened (thank god).

Mickey

[60117 Bois Roussel]

I can confirm from interviews of staff from between the two Wars that goods guards and passenger guards were separate entities. Alas, they have long since passed on so there's no going back.

Goods brake vans - There's something that I'm not sure about. A goods brake van may have worked off its parent system, but did the man himself - or was he relieved along the way for a native guard to take over? I ask because I know of cases where it happened in-house, so to speak, to ensure that men worked within a normal shift. We tend to forget how much slower most goods trains were compared with passenger trains over the same route.

I have also heard (and I don't know if this comes from the pre-Grouping or Big Four era), that LYR brake vans were so much more comfortable than LNWR ones that Carlisle would pinch them in preference to their own. I might imagine it would have been harder if the LYR guard was still present.

A key factor is that many goods trains worked between marshalling yards. So, for example, GWR GBVs were common at Woodford Halse, and LNER ones at Banbury. But I have yet to see a picture of either type working any further.

Passenger brake vans - there's been some confusion about these and it's a different kettle of fish, partly because they carried a load and they had individual rosters. Many of these cross-country through workings are well documented, including vans that worked opposite each in two-day rosters. Besides, isn't the remit goods brake vans?

[Mickey]

With regards to brake vans and goods guards I have a vague memory of hearing many years ago (nearly 45 years ago in fact) and probably from a LNER/BR signalman that some goods guards 'back in the day' (probably pre-B.R. days i'm not sure exactly when?) may have had there own regular brake vans which they usually kept very clean inside and out but i'm not 100% certain of that?.

Mickey

[Rlangham]

After the First World War (which also saw pooling of wagons, I think from 1917) GWR Toads were hired by the NER from 1919 so a good excuse for one on an NER layout!

[Mickey]

When it comes to brake vans in general and just out of curiosity why were some brake vans painted in bauxite and some painted in grey?. Were the bauxite painted brake vans 'blow throughs' fitted wiith vacuum pipes as opposed to the grey brake vans with no vacuum pipes being fitted?.

Mickey

[Atlantic 3279]

I believe we have to be careful to specify the company and period to which that question refers. I understand that the true LNER answer is that all "general service" brake vans were supposed to be brown-red oxide before 1937-ish and bauxite thereafter, whether unfitted, piped or fully fitted.

What other companies did, what happened to engineering fleet vehicles and what happened after nationalisation is another matter.

I gather it may be that Cheshire Lines LNER-pattern brake vans were grey in the 20s/30s.