Lettering style on tenders

[giner]

So many typefaces have become altered since the advent of computer typesetting. It would be interesting to see if the LNER 'gill sans' is the same as that which was used in printing houses of the time. That is Monotype Gill Sans. If anyone has any old Monotype Gill Sans Medium, as used in the old hot metal days of letterpress printing, a careful examination may well reveal that this is what the LNER went with.

If I remember correctly, and it's a long time since I was an apprentice compositor (that was the job title for those of us who composed pages of metal type for books, etc. in the pre-computer age), but looking at the nameplates on the A4s, I'd put money on it being the Gill Sans Medium as I knew it.

[73D]

So many typefaces have become altered since the advent of computer typesetting. It would be interesting to see if the LNER 'gill sans' is the same as that which was used in printing houses of the time. That is Monotype Gill Sans. If anyone has any old Monotype Gill Sans Medium, as used in the old hot metal days of letterpress printing, a careful examination may well reveal that this is what the LNER went with.

If I remember correctly, and it's a long time since I was an apprentice compositor (that was the job title for those of us who composed pages of metal type for books, etc. in the pre-computer age), but looking at the nameplates on the A4s, I'd put money on it being the Gill Sans Medium as I knew it.

Ah yes, takes me back to 'casting-off' using the sheets available for each typeface and hoping that what arrived on my drawing board next morning fitted, then making sure it was fixed properly before use to avoid smudging! Then in the early 70s came imagesetters, such as Diatronic followed by Linotronic, before we got complete control over type setting with the advent of the Mac running, in my case Quark. As you say it would be very interesting to see how 'original' Monotype Gill Sans looks against the hand drawn LNER version, although they must of used the Monotype version for typesetting.

For fun I have put up a comparison of a computer version, in this case Adobe Gill Sans Regular, against Mallard's nameplate; Monotype (MT) and ITC versions are also available, although they seem similar to the Adobe version. The cap height is the same and the letters have been spaced to match with none of it being distorted and as you can see it is not a bad match. However there are differences, such as; the 'M' seems a bit wider with the middle, which comes to a point on the plate, is flattened at the point on the modern version, the 'A' has a lower cross bar, the bottom bar of the 'L' is longer, the leg of the 'R' extends further and is not as straight, and lastly the 'D' is wider. But once the type is outlined, in a vector program like Illustrator, these differences can be easily adjusted to match exactly.

[giner]

Very interesting, Richard. I'm curious to know the other differences between it and the Monotype font. However, the original LNER drawings of the face are probably long gone, so I suppose we'll never know for sure.

[Dave]

Although not relating to tender lettering there are some drawings at the NRM which have setting out info/dimensions for Gill Sans lettering which I have seen and may be of interest to people.
These are from the Doncaster C&W lists for the Coronation stainless steel letters.
Drwg 12274N dated April 1937, LNER stainless steel letters (full size) 7" high.
Drwg 12345N dated May 1937 LNER stainless steel letters (full size) 8" high (with a pencil note - for tail ??? of coronation trains).

Then there is Drwg 12463N dated July 1937 LNER stainless steel letters (full size) 7" high which sets out the letters (WESTRIDNGLM).

Darlington loco drawing lists have some drawings, but I've not seen them, so might not have setting out info.
Drwg 17018 Locomotive route availability - lettering on cab side Oct 1947
Drwg 17022 Nameplates (B1) Nov 1947
Drwg 17113 Layout of crest & engine numbers J72/49 Nov 1949.

I'm sure there must be more info/drawings at the NRM, it's just finding the time to look for it.

[73D]

Although not relating to tender lettering there are some drawings at the NRM which have setting out info/dimensions for Gill Sans lettering which I have seen and may be of interest to people.
These are from the Doncaster C&W lists for the Coronation stainless steel letters.
Drwg 12274N dated April 1937, LNER stainless steel letters (full size) 7" high.
Drwg 12345N dated May 1937 LNER stainless steel letters (full size) 8" high (with a pencil note - for tail ??? of coronation trains).

I have these drawings and have used them to draw up the letters and numbers. The letters reflect the comments I made above regarding those used on Mallard's plate. However the numbers in most cases are dramatically different when compared with the computer typeface.

[pete2hogs]

I think people may be overlooking that we don't all see colours the same either! Is there any truth to the rumour that Stroudley actually thought his 'Improved Engine Green' really was green?

I'm all in favour of research, but there is a huge reluctance to admit the truth when the truth is finally found to be 'nobody knows'.

As for example the exact shade of 'apple' green used by the LNER, which in any case was not sourced centrally. Likely it was slightly different at each main works and in each batch supplied. Equally likely it is impossible to reproduce exactly as we have no original unfaded examples and cannot use the same 'ingredients' in the mix either for the colour itself or for the undercoats and varnish. It doesn't seem to have been an issue that bothered Gresley much - he may even have liked the subtle variations - he seems to have been the nearest to a train-spotter amongst the great CME's.

The same will apply to the British Railways lettering - it was a transient temporary solution, and will have used materials to hand. The style used seems to have simply depended on whatever the craftsman involved were familiar with - it can't have used existing transfers, and AFAIK no transfers were supplied centrally. If any orders were issued centrally on what typeface was to be used it must have been late in the day and achieved no noticeable change to the lettering used by ex-LNER works, which was as far as I can recall from dozens of photos, a lightly bastardised Gill Sans.

In the pre-computer age there was nothing to force an exactly standard interpretation of such things unless it was a particular hobby-horse of the management - this being a temporary solution I doubt there was much grey hair produced over exactly how the instruction was interpreted. When an image was actually agreed to be the permanent one going forward it would be and was different and standards were enforced - although even then there was some discretion at works level on locos perceived to be of lesser impact on the 'corporate image'.

[1H was 2E]

In "The British Railway Journal" no. 25 on page 255 there is a reproduction of a document issued on 1st July 1947 by the C.M.E. Swindon on the subject of "Painting of Locomotive Engines and Tenders". These could be described as official names. The name of the green used? "Engine Green Paint". Other names used are "Chinese Red" for buffer plates and casings (their terms) and "Smokestack Black" for all the black bits - not just the chimney.
In "The Locomotive History of the South Eastern and Chatham Railway" by the RCTS (and, before anyone says, pedantically it was a management committee of two railways with separate directorates) page 6 'the green was obtained by grinding a dark Brunswick green pigment into a mixture of ... linseed oil" (my italics) and, page 43(after WW1) ".... was unable to obtain supplies of Brunswick green". Possibly, the difficulty was that Brunswick green was obtained from that area of Germany Anglicised as "Brunswick" and circumstances changed with the war, and I infer that 'true' Brunswick green ceased to be available as a result of WW1. The first statement however does imply there were shades of B.G..