Just to give the list some clarification on this organisation, which is a registered charitable trust ( no 1144758).
We are not associated with the NBL group who have an article in this months Heritage Railway on their proposals.
There will be a full statement in the next few days, which with the Moderators approval will be put on here, so you are aware of what is what.
Should any of you require further info please contact a Trustee Brian Hall on hall.brian_e@yahoo.co.uk
Just to let you know that we have a GER tender and a LNER tender so we can run both types of B17. No names have been finalised yet
On a personal note i am building a 5in live steam B17......the race to steam first is on!
Regards
Ron
The B17 Steam Locomotive Trust
Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard
Re: The B17 Steam Locomotive Trust
As promised the statement from the Trustees of the B17 Locomotive Trust.
hope this clarifies the situation.
Any questiopns etc please feel free to ask/comment
Best wishes
Ron
PROPOSED SECOND NEW BUILD B17 No. 61662 MANCHESTER UNITED
Gentlemen,
You may have read or heard the news about the rival B17 new build project which was featured in the latest Heritage Railway – issue 160, published on 16th February. This project is led by Ken Livermore on behalf of the North British Locomotive Preservation Group Limited (NBLPG Ltd,) whose website provides details of their plan, as does another dedicated website in the name of the 61662 Appeal. In effect an initial plan to construct a full size, non operational version has turned into the real thing with a totally misleading estimated cost of £M1.8 and a 5 year timescale.
The declared aim to target Manchester United football supporters for contributions to fund the project is reportedly avoiding competition with the wider public domain, who may choose to support ourselves as, The B17 Steam Locomotive Trust. Does this in some way justify NBLPG Ltd’s action with perhaps a belief that they are helping the Trust by stating that, “inquiries received from known enthusiasts will be referred to the Trust?”
The Heritage Railway feature suggests certain areas where some prospect of co-operative arrangement was perhaps being solicited by NBLPG Ltd, in conjunction with the Trust. However, although generally liberal in our approach to new build schemes, the 61662 Appeal is believed to be a retrograde development. This letter provides a true statement to the supporters of The B17 Steam Locomotive Trust:
• Until the 15th February, the Trust was unaware of the launch of a new build project known as the 61662 Appeal which reportedly was delayed to permit the Trust to become established.
• The decision by the Trust to announce the primary name and number of their locomotive has not been made and in any case will only be chosen on the basis of a democratic vote by its supporters. Over and above this, the Trust may from time to time select an alternative identity of stately houses, football clubs and military titles as a special short term feature, consistent with the B17 theme and with appropriate permissions being granted.
• Some existing supporters to the Trust and more recent inquirers are known to be resident in the Greater Manchester area. It therefore follows that the indigenous population cannot be assumed to be wholly football supporters of Manchester United FC. So, to continue........
• Re-directing enthusiast’s toward the Trust maybe a laudable aim on the part of NBLPG Ltd, and the 61662 Appeal but this is meaningless and not valid.
• It is confirmed that arrangements relating to the permanent acquisition or hire or loan of items owned by NBLPG Ltd, and the 61662 Appeal from the Trust have neither been discussed nor considered.
Conversation with Ken Livermore indicated the intent to pursue the declared course of action on the part of NBLPG Ltd, and the 61662 Appeal and he has reiterated that their activity will neither cause any adverse effect nor suffer ill effect in return. Further, he also re-affirmed that a press release was not issued to Heritage Railway, either by himself or anyone representing NBLPG Ltd, or the 61662 Appeal.
Notwithstanding this, the Trust plans to continue pursuing a professional approach to its project objective, although the clear risk now exists that with two entirely separate projects operating, each is bound to create confusion and perhaps even distrust amongst the wider public and sponsors on whose generosity by their ‘giving and support’ we depend upon. It is clear that whatever locomotive project is being supported success is crucially dependent on the ability to enthuse people who are not currently enthusiasts (and sadly the original enthusiasts are a dying breed,) so effectively two different B17 projects will be ‘fishing in the same pool’ – to the disadvantage of each other.
Finally - investigations have shown that NBLPG Ltd, was incorporated at Companies House as a private company limited by guarantee during late January 2011, which was also the same time when similar actions were agreed to establish The B17 Steam Locomotive Trust with charitable status. For the Trust, this was successfully achieved and included regulation by HMRC (for gift aid) and The Charity Commission, unlike NBLPG Ltd. Registration of NBLPG Ltd, was made in the joint names of Mr. and Mrs. Livermore who currently remain sole directors. However the purpose of the company is also unclear because neither the ‘Objects’ nor ‘what happens to that company’s assets in the event of its dissolution’ are defined in the Articles of Association. This discovery now has been all the more frustrating because Ken Livermore was an active advocate for the formation of the Trust at that time and afterwards, resulting in his continued support as a founder member. As to the basis of the judgement used for changing from a ‘mock up’ to an operational locomotive and the formal registration of NBLPG Ltd, - one can only wonder?
Further developments will be notified in the interest of maintaining communication with supporters. Please address any related comments or observations to the Brian Hall.
Compiled by Brian Hall (Trustee,) Paul Hibberd (Trustee) and Henry Mullens (Trustee)
20th February 2012.
hope this clarifies the situation.
Any questiopns etc please feel free to ask/comment
Best wishes
Ron
PROPOSED SECOND NEW BUILD B17 No. 61662 MANCHESTER UNITED
Gentlemen,
You may have read or heard the news about the rival B17 new build project which was featured in the latest Heritage Railway – issue 160, published on 16th February. This project is led by Ken Livermore on behalf of the North British Locomotive Preservation Group Limited (NBLPG Ltd,) whose website provides details of their plan, as does another dedicated website in the name of the 61662 Appeal. In effect an initial plan to construct a full size, non operational version has turned into the real thing with a totally misleading estimated cost of £M1.8 and a 5 year timescale.
The declared aim to target Manchester United football supporters for contributions to fund the project is reportedly avoiding competition with the wider public domain, who may choose to support ourselves as, The B17 Steam Locomotive Trust. Does this in some way justify NBLPG Ltd’s action with perhaps a belief that they are helping the Trust by stating that, “inquiries received from known enthusiasts will be referred to the Trust?”
The Heritage Railway feature suggests certain areas where some prospect of co-operative arrangement was perhaps being solicited by NBLPG Ltd, in conjunction with the Trust. However, although generally liberal in our approach to new build schemes, the 61662 Appeal is believed to be a retrograde development. This letter provides a true statement to the supporters of The B17 Steam Locomotive Trust:
• Until the 15th February, the Trust was unaware of the launch of a new build project known as the 61662 Appeal which reportedly was delayed to permit the Trust to become established.
• The decision by the Trust to announce the primary name and number of their locomotive has not been made and in any case will only be chosen on the basis of a democratic vote by its supporters. Over and above this, the Trust may from time to time select an alternative identity of stately houses, football clubs and military titles as a special short term feature, consistent with the B17 theme and with appropriate permissions being granted.
• Some existing supporters to the Trust and more recent inquirers are known to be resident in the Greater Manchester area. It therefore follows that the indigenous population cannot be assumed to be wholly football supporters of Manchester United FC. So, to continue........
• Re-directing enthusiast’s toward the Trust maybe a laudable aim on the part of NBLPG Ltd, and the 61662 Appeal but this is meaningless and not valid.
• It is confirmed that arrangements relating to the permanent acquisition or hire or loan of items owned by NBLPG Ltd, and the 61662 Appeal from the Trust have neither been discussed nor considered.
Conversation with Ken Livermore indicated the intent to pursue the declared course of action on the part of NBLPG Ltd, and the 61662 Appeal and he has reiterated that their activity will neither cause any adverse effect nor suffer ill effect in return. Further, he also re-affirmed that a press release was not issued to Heritage Railway, either by himself or anyone representing NBLPG Ltd, or the 61662 Appeal.
Notwithstanding this, the Trust plans to continue pursuing a professional approach to its project objective, although the clear risk now exists that with two entirely separate projects operating, each is bound to create confusion and perhaps even distrust amongst the wider public and sponsors on whose generosity by their ‘giving and support’ we depend upon. It is clear that whatever locomotive project is being supported success is crucially dependent on the ability to enthuse people who are not currently enthusiasts (and sadly the original enthusiasts are a dying breed,) so effectively two different B17 projects will be ‘fishing in the same pool’ – to the disadvantage of each other.
Finally - investigations have shown that NBLPG Ltd, was incorporated at Companies House as a private company limited by guarantee during late January 2011, which was also the same time when similar actions were agreed to establish The B17 Steam Locomotive Trust with charitable status. For the Trust, this was successfully achieved and included regulation by HMRC (for gift aid) and The Charity Commission, unlike NBLPG Ltd. Registration of NBLPG Ltd, was made in the joint names of Mr. and Mrs. Livermore who currently remain sole directors. However the purpose of the company is also unclear because neither the ‘Objects’ nor ‘what happens to that company’s assets in the event of its dissolution’ are defined in the Articles of Association. This discovery now has been all the more frustrating because Ken Livermore was an active advocate for the formation of the Trust at that time and afterwards, resulting in his continued support as a founder member. As to the basis of the judgement used for changing from a ‘mock up’ to an operational locomotive and the formal registration of NBLPG Ltd, - one can only wonder?
Further developments will be notified in the interest of maintaining communication with supporters. Please address any related comments or observations to the Brian Hall.
Compiled by Brian Hall (Trustee,) Paul Hibberd (Trustee) and Henry Mullens (Trustee)
20th February 2012.
-
Hatfield Shed
- LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
- Posts: 1729
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:34 pm
Re: The B17 Steam Locomotive Trust
Like it or not, no one has 'territorial rights' here; it's a free world.
Know how to make progress? Go to the NB team, with a proposal to get a single joint B17 project going, with your assets as the basis for negotiation. Because you are quite right, an 'interested party' like myself will not be likely to support either, as division of effort is likely to see money completely wasted on not completing either project.
If you need inspiration to guide your thinking, read Grinling and others on how the several competing groups to build what became the GNR system were brought into a reasonably coherent party. There will be pain, unhappiness and compromises. It is about being big enough to swallow your pride, in order to get to the desired outcome, if you feel it really matters enough...
Know how to make progress? Go to the NB team, with a proposal to get a single joint B17 project going, with your assets as the basis for negotiation. Because you are quite right, an 'interested party' like myself will not be likely to support either, as division of effort is likely to see money completely wasted on not completing either project.
If you need inspiration to guide your thinking, read Grinling and others on how the several competing groups to build what became the GNR system were brought into a reasonably coherent party. There will be pain, unhappiness and compromises. It is about being big enough to swallow your pride, in order to get to the desired outcome, if you feel it really matters enough...
-
Ken Livermore
- NER Y7 0-4-0T
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:26 pm
Re: The B17 Steam Locomotive Trust
Hi Chaps, if I may reply on behalf of the Engine 61662 Appeal, despite what is being said in your columns, we fully support the Trust's efforts to build a new B17 and will be very pleased to refer any general enthusiast enquiries that we receive to their team. Our efforts are focussed on Manchester United football fans who are unlikely to support any other locomotive project. We are purposely not seeking coverage in the Railway Press so as to leave the field clear for the Trust.
I would like to clarify one thing however, we registered NBLPG as a limited company on legal advice in case any major problems arose when we shipped our Dubs Tank from South Africa back to the UK last April. It had nothing to do with the Replica 61662 Appeal. Apart from 61662, we have the Dubs Tank, three further locomotives in South Africa, the Steam Mastershot service and the Paraguay Project all running at the moment so it was felt best to formalise our status.
On a personal level, I wish the B17 Trust every success in building their new locomotive and look forward to hearing of their good progress in the future.
Best Regards, Ken
I would like to clarify one thing however, we registered NBLPG as a limited company on legal advice in case any major problems arose when we shipped our Dubs Tank from South Africa back to the UK last April. It had nothing to do with the Replica 61662 Appeal. Apart from 61662, we have the Dubs Tank, three further locomotives in South Africa, the Steam Mastershot service and the Paraguay Project all running at the moment so it was felt best to formalise our status.
On a personal level, I wish the B17 Trust every success in building their new locomotive and look forward to hearing of their good progress in the future.
Best Regards, Ken
Re: The B17 Steam Locomotive Trust
As a Newcastle United supporter and a wife who is a City fan, I am totally put off by the thought of supporting the re-build of 61662...!
workev!
workev!
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