A4 Post War/Early Nationalisation Name Plate Background

[Tom F]

Afternoon chaps

I have aquired a Bachmann A4 in LNER Garter Blue Post War of Mile Beevor. The loco has red name backgrounds, I'm possibly going to model Empire of India in Garter Blue with British Railways on the tender or Dwight D Eisenhower in the same style, would anyone know whether she had a red background nameplate during this time period too? And what other A4s did.

Cheers

Tom

[rob237]

Can't recall seeing a picture of any A4, in Garter Blue, with a red backed plate...
IIRC, plate colours didn't really become a 'can of worms' until BR Green days.
Reckon we've covered this subject in depth within an earlier thread...try Search.

BTW: Noticed that the projected Hornby 2011 Empire of India ,in Green, carries a blue-backed plate!

Cheers
Robt P.

[Postman Prat]

Hi

re: Nameplate colour on Empire of India, I recall early sixties on some Haymarket A4s the colour was blue but I don't think it applied to all of them. I've a vague recollection that a couple of A1s were the same.

Also, during the same period, some of the Kings Cross A4s (I'm sure Mallard was one) had red backings, can't remember any others. It was a long time ago and in the Tyneside area we didn't see so many KX A4s and I was only really interested in 'number crunching' at that time

Hope this is of interest

[Tom F]

Thanks chaps most interesting

It's the post war period of 1948 that I'm interested in, it's just annoying there is very little photos from this period, let alone colour ones, in all my books I've only found a handful of pics of A4s in Garter Blue with 'BRITISH RAIWAYS' on the tender.

The fact the Bachmann model has red nameplates included (etched) and correct corridor tender for the loco makes me wonder if the Red backgrounds were common post war until BR Express Blue was introduced anyhow.

I'm only guessing mind

[rob237]

Suggest that early BR red-backed plates were not a common feature...but exceptions may have existed.

Whilst I'm loathe to open the worm can again, I'd agree that many - but not all - of the KX & HA green A4's did, during later BR, carry red plates...Gateshead A4's very rarely (Sir Murrough?), if ever...A4 cleaning/decoration not being one of GD's strong points!.

Cheers
Robt P.

[Postman Prat]

From 1960 - 64 I don't recall ever seeing a Gateshead A4 with a nameplate other than black. Similarly, I can't remember seeing a Haymarket one with a red plate, I'm pretty certain that those that were coloured were always blue, examples that stick in my mind were Kingfisher and Merlin.

The problem is, of course, unless notes were made at the time, are we 'remembering' what we think we want to 'remember'?

[harvester]

In the 60's I cannot remember seeing a Gateshead pacific clean enough to be able to see the nameplate background! Although remember seeing 60012 with a light blue back ground on a works visit to Doncaster in 1961, I believe retuning north with a black one, the only colour I ever saw an engine ex works.

[giner]

Again, the product of misty memory, but didn't the 1950's Hornby Dublo A4, No. 7 (SNG) in Garter Blue and LNER on the tender, have printed red nameplates? Hardly the most reliable source, but maybe it was correct. Later, when Hornby brought out a BR liveried 60016, I'm tending to think it had black nameplates.

[rob237]

... Later, when Hornby brought out a BR liveried 60016, I'm tending to think it had black nameplates...

Yes it did...only sold my 3-rail version quite recently!
Cheers
Robt P.

[owd sweedy]

Hi Tom,
I was looking through back issues of Back Track magazine the other day, when I saw something that brought to mind this thread. It was a colour photo taken on 19th October 1948 at the opening of the Rugby test plant, and shows 60007 in Garter blue, with red wheels and BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tender, and with a red background to the name plate, ( (Vol18, Num1, Jan 2004. J.M.Jarvis/Colour-Rail BRE 158). I also seem to remember a colour photo of 60011 in Back track, but am not sure if it was pre or post war. If it crops up I will let you know.
Cheers,
Peter.

[owd sweedy]

Hi Tom,
well I found the colour photo in Back Track magazine (Aug 2000), of Empire of India and turns out it is not much help for you. It was taken at Newcastle Central in August 1947. The loco is wearing LNER Garter Blue and the nameplate background, is painted red. The lighting and cast shadows are such that I can not make out the number on the cabside, or what is on the tender side either. I believe she didn't get the BR number (60011) and lettering until March 1949, at which time the nameplate could have been painted black, or left red, so not conclusive.
Cheers,
Owd Sweedy

[A4-Mike]

Hi
I’ve been carrying out some research into A4’s before I start a layout to showcase all the A4 names, some 46 of them in as many guises as 46 will allow.
I have looked at nameplate colours, and recommended reading is Locomotives in Detail Vol3 A4 Class by David Clarke [Ian Allen books] but unfortunately although he goes into some detail on red & blue plates he doesn’t answer your exact question, however on page 66 is a colour photograph of Empire of India as No 11 in LNER garter blue with a light red nameplate plate, and also I have a photograph of Seagull in BR garter blue 60033 [1947] with a light red nameplate.
So obviously the A4s had red plates around this time but by no means all of them. David Clarke suggests that KX & BR Scottish loco had them, at some time. The book details red plates during the LNER era and BR after 1951, but I would guess the area of plate colours gets very complicated in the early BR period.
Incidentally the book also details A4s that carried blue plates, William Whitelaw & Empire of India and the yellow stripe, Golden Plover & Merlin.
I won’t go on but Merlin is a fascinating loco, as it carried all manner on LNER & BR inflicted logos and liveries!
Mike

[A4-Mike]

Hi
Just a slight error in my last posting,
Seagull photo, which is page 54 of the book is of course post BR, it's Empire of India that's 1947.

Also of interest are the red plates fitted to LNER wartime black locos, as detailed on my Bachmann No 4 William Whitlaw. So we can be certain that Miles Beevor as in the Bachmann model we both have could well have carried red plates, although they could be described as light red in LNER/early BR days.
Mike

[dlester]

Pre-war the red background was on the specials: 4488-4492 (Coronation), 4495-6 (West Riding) and 4498 (Sir Nigel). It's just possible that 2509-12 also have red, but I'm not sure.

After the war, but still LNER, there'd have been an attempt to go back to red background for the "people" A4s, as well as those of the above still on special duties.

However, when Peter Townsend was Top Shed running super, he instituted a policy of red backgrounds for "his" engines, until told to stop, after a photographer using Ilford B&W stock complained to Doncaster (source: one of those "colour shots of A4s" booklets). My guess is that the light blue might have similarly been his opposite number at Haymarket. So officially in BR times it was supposed to be black.