Formation of West Riding Pullman 1930?

[nutford]

I am trying to confirm the formation of the West Riding Pullman, as of around 1930. There is a lot of (often conflicting) information about on this, mainly because people get confused with the various Pullman trains running on this route or parts of it - eg 'Yorkshire Pullman', 'Harrogate Pullman', 'Queen of Scots Pullman'.

So to be clear, this train began as 'Harrogate Pullman' in 1923, was renamed 'West Riding Pullman' in 1928, and became 'Yorkshire Pullman' in 1935; I am interested in the formation around 1930, and specifically as it passed through Ripon. I 'know', or think I know, it was 5 coaches, being Brake 3rd, 2 restaurant 1sts, and 2 restaurant 3rds. (A spotters list in a Ken Hoole book confirms it as 5 coaches, and the 1932 carriage roster matches that and has the formation as above).

What I do not know (for sure), is if these were matchboard or steel cars - I believe the former; and if they were 8 or 12 wheel (I think the restaurant cars were perhaps 12 wheel, unsure about the brake...?) Nor do I know any of the coach names. Can anyone add any detail? Thanks!

[john coffin]

Checking Yeadon's Named trains of the LNER. it is not very clear in the text about the train formation.
However, there are a couple photos from 1930, with either a D11 and a C1 pulling.
The carriages appear to have straight sides so I assume that makes them matchboard stock.
There seems to be 7-8 carriages in the train, and some of the pictures show that a Gresley brake
was also included in the train.

HTH

Paul

[nutford]

Paul - the 7-8 carriages doesn't surprise me - not least I think the length may well have varied over time, or even by day - and at times I think extra coaches may have been added for part of the journey. Depends what you read and where! And I think there was a shortage of Pullman brakes so if one was u/s a standard brake had to be used.

A C1 would be reasonably 'normal' I think, if there was such a thing, certainly up as far as Harrogate. Likewise D11s. At Harrogate the loco was normally changed to an NER region loco, a C7 or A1, but some of the GNR C1s were transferred to the NER area and used further north. Did you happen to see if they were 12-wheel coaches...?

[john coffin]

It appears that some of them certainly were 6 wheeled bogies, but since as usual the pictures were really of the
locos, you only see some the carriages, and the bogie detail is often rather dark.

Paul

[nutford]

Just read an article which says the WRP was made up with cars from the (defunct) Sheffield Pullman in June 1924: one 8-wheel K-type and four 12-wheelers.

40 - 29 seat 3rd class brake parlour
45 - 36 seat 3rd class kitchen car
Geraldine - K type 22 seat 1st class kitchen car (8-wheel)
56 - 35 seat third class kitchen car
41 - 29 seat 3rd class brake parlour

Goes on to list various other cars, and like pretty much everything about these trains gets (to me) totally confusing so not much the wiser!

[Seagull]

I don't know if it's of any use but the winter 1935-6 formation was;-

North is at the top. Description - weight - passengers - destination {name/No.}

Pullman 3rd brake (12 wheel) - 43t - 17 - Harrogate {car No.46}
Pullman 1st kitchen - 39t - 22 - Harrogate {maybe Marcelle or Kathleen}
Pullman 3rd kitchen - 42t - 30 = Harrogate {after 1931 was No.81 don't know what was before}
Pullman 3rd parlour - 40t - 42 - Harrogate {after 1931 was No.83 don't know what was before}
Pullman 3rd kitchen - 44t - 35 - Halifax (Old) {No.44}
Pulman 1st brake (12 wheel) - 43t - 16 - Halifax (Old) {Catania - spare was Cambria}
Brake van (NE) (B) (6 wheel) [Attached Doncaster 7.30pm] - Hull {no details}
Pullman 1st kitchen - 39t - 22 - Hull {Sybil}
Pullman 3rd parlour - 40t - 42 - Hull {after 1931 was No.84 don't know what was before}

Alan

PS. The van attached at Doncaster was used for the passengers luggage for Hull when the two Hull cars were detached as they had no guards space.

[nutford]

Thanks Alan...

Well I've just found another thread on this same subject, and looks like I'm flogging a dead horse. There's 4 pages of it, and seems every source differs from every other source - I suspect the formation may have changed so much one day was not the same as the next, let alone one year. The conclusion is there were some 12 wheelers, and some 8 wheelers, they were matchboard apart form the steel ones, and some were kitchen cars and some were parlour cars and some were brakes. And that's about it lol! Oh well......

[Seagull]

Yes this train probably suffered more variations in stock than nearly any other, especially before 1935!

Good Luck.

Alan

[JASd17]

I am sure this has been debated before.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11851&hilit=pullman

There are also excellent Pullman Car sites, most notably Terry Bye.

John

[Graeme Leary]

Hello Nutford,

Seeing you kicked this thread off back in March you may well have by now found the answer to your query. However, if relevant (even though pre-1930) the following are slightly abridged details of 3 formations I'd received from the Pullman Society sometime last year. (Apologies for not passing this on back in March but I tend to get bogged down in the Model Railways threads). They are:-

May 1926:
12 wheel Third Class Car No 46 Brake Non-smoking
12 " Third Class Car No 48 Kitchen Smoking
8 " FORTUNA Kitchen Non-smoking
8 " IRENE Kitchen Smoking
12 " Third Class Car No 49 Kitchen Non-smoking
12 " Third Class Car No 50 Kitchen Smoking
8 " Third Class Car No 55 Kitchen Smoking/Non-smoking saloons
12 " ANSONIA Brake Non-smoking

August 1927:
12 wheel Third Class Car No 57 Brake Non-smoking
12 " Third Class Car No 51 Kitchen Smoking
8 " IOLANTHE Kitchen Non-smoking
8 " ROSEMARY Parlour Smoking
12 " Third Class Car No 53 Kitchen Non-smoking
12 " Third Class Car No 52 Kitchen Smoking
8 " Third Class Car No 54 Kitchen Smoking/non-smoking saloons
12 " ARCADIA Brake Non-smoking

June 1928:
12 wheel Third Class Car No 49 Kitchen Non-smoking
12 " Third Class Car No 45 Kitchen Smoking
8 " IOLANTHE Kitchen Non-smoking
8 " FORTUNA Kitchen Smoking
12 " Third Class Car No 51 Kitchen Smoking
8 " Third Class Car No 54 Kitchen Non-smoking
12 " CAMBRIA Kitchen Smoking

Due to platform length limitations (7 coach maximum) I have replicated (as best as the available RTR models allow) the June 1928 set (with renamed/renumbered carriages as per the details shown). It was a bit of a challenge getting the 4 12 wheel carriages needed but scouring the internet I managed to find them).

I also operate 2 locos with this set; A3 'Shotover' which from details provided by d17JAS seems to be one of the most likely to have worked the WPR at that time and also a C1 Atlantic (not sure if 100% correct but the Locomotion model No 3251).

Hope not too late to be of some help/interest.

Graeme Leary
New Zealand

[nutford]

Graeme - never too late lol!

Just come upon this. I seem to remember an equally late post by me regarding a pic of 'Shotover' at Ripon on your earlier thread, so some good co-operation there!

That is exactly what I wanted to know. Ish lol!

Taking the 1928 formation, I am (reasonably) sure that this was a 7-car train until (I think) Harrogate, when 2 cars (Cambria and another, kitchen parlour I think...) were separated for Halifax. The original train had 3 brakes - according to this:

http://www.britishrailways.info/pullman_cars.htm

Cambria, Fortuna and Car 54 were all brakes. I do have the 1932 carriage roster for this train in the NE area (so I think excluding the Halifax coaches).

This shows it as a Brake 3rd, 2 restaurant 1sts and 2 restaurant 3rds. So must have changed again...
But begs the question were two brakes dropped off for Halifax, or one....

Still not quite sure how I am going to model this - even when I think I've sussed it, I then get confused with which Hornby models might be useful...

Thanks Graeme.