K2 puzzle photo.

[Eightpot]

Anyone got a circa 1937 passenger train timetable to answer this question? I have a copy 'Locomotives Illustrated' (Ian Allen publication) No. 67 covering the Gresley 2-cylinder 2-6-0s. At the bottom of Page 22 is a photo of K2 No. 4681 captioned as '...strides away from its stop at Brookmans Park with an up semi-fast for Kings Cross around 1937.' It is on the Up Main, but my recollection of BP was (thinking of the 1960s) that all stopping trains used the slow lines with the exception of a few stopping on the Up Main platform during the morning rush hour, and Down Main trains in the evening. The photo appears to have been taken around mid afternoon, and certainly does not appear to be the type of train (too long) that would have normally stopped there. So, can anyone confirm, or otherwise, if such a train would have stopped there at that time of day, and if so, what time would it have been?

[Mickey]

Your correct Eightpot with regards to trains stopping at Brookmans Park station during the late 1960s & early 1970s usually they either stopped in the Up slow line platform or Down slow line platform and come to think of it I can't really ever recall stopping in the Up fast line platform during that era but I have a vague memory of being on a loco hauled train of B.R.Mk1s from Kings Cross and I think we did stop in the Down fast line platform one Sunday evening but that was about 45 years ago!!.

Mickey

[JASd17]

Not an easy query to answer.

Very few services other than the 'bogie suburban' types ( i.e. Quad sets) called at Brookmans Park, as far as I can discover.

One service that did originated at Leeds around 7.6 or 7.8am, depending on the exact timetable. It stopped at many stations on the way south. Including lengthy periods of rest at Doncaster, Grantham and Peterborough. It departed the latter station at 1.49pm for King's Cross. 4681 was a Peterborough loco at this period. Another considerable stop at Hitchin was required. Departing there just before 4pm. The Brookmans Park stop was at 4.44pm. It did not stop at the inner suburban stations after New Barnet, other than Finsbury Park, arriving at KX at 5.18pm. Hence the semi-fast description of the train in Locomotives Illustrated perhaps?

Unfortunately, the train in the photograph does not conform to any in the carriage working books of the period. All the late 1930s books have a 6-wheel van leading, with another 6-wheeler behind that SO. In all the books it states that the train is limited to 30 pairs of wheels on reaching Kings Cross, that is 7 or 8 vehicles, so the train in the photo is too long, unless something is removed at Finsbury Park possibly?

The engine is working hard up the gradient, which may well indicate that it has stopped at Brookmans Park.

I offer this as a suggestion only, perhaps others on the Forum can provide a better solution?

John

[60117 Bois Roussel]

John is right about the 7.6am from Leeds which, according to the 1938 WTT, was the only Up GNML train to call at BP in the afternoon, at 4.44pm, with which the sun angle tallies. To my eye it's instantly recognisable as a secondary & intermediate GNML service (not a "semi-fast") from Leeds connecting with expresses (hence its internittent journey with pauses along the way), a big give-away being the cluster of bogie vans on the rear from Leeds.

Secondary formations like this employed stock at the bottom of the cascade sequence and changed a lot and in 1937(S) the passenger carriages were rostered for a low-key 3-set of ex-GNR carriages, gangwayed and non-gangwayed, Howlden and Gresley, and a strengthening 3rd added to the head on Saturdays at Doncaster.

BCL Gresley 58'1 1/2"
TK Gresley 52'6"
CL Howlden 45'

- but this was liable to change and as the photo shows, there's a gangwayed ex-GNR 61'6" BCK leading, followed by the TK, and a recently overhauled Howlden 6w carriage last, type unknown. Such variation was common and normal. Likewise, appearance of a BG from Doncaster behind the tender instead of a 6w van. In "LNER Passenger Trains etc" we described this practice in lower-level services (and a similar GNML working) and that the CW book showed a combination of what was desired and what was actually operating when the book went to print. This is an excellent illustration and of course, paradise for modellers.

Another feature is that the GN Section used the secondary services from Leeds to convey vans and as I think we all know, their actual numbers varied from day to day: the roster would quote the minimum (the vans had their own rosters), to which extras arising were added as required, and ECS of course. In this case I think I can see an ex-GNR Gresley 51'1/2" milk brake and a Howlden 6w brake with an ECS passenger carriage among them. It might all look a bit higgledy-piggledy but it is a classic working and formation and once you know what the intention was, everything falls into place.

[Mickey]

A side issue with regards to the Brookmans Park and the Hawkshead area two or three hundred yards further up the line towards Potters Bar is there appears to be quite a bit of amateur film footage that was shot on the down side of the line between both places (shot from the footpath beside the Down slow line that still runs between Hawkshead & Brookmans Park station) during the late 1950s & early 1960s that usually features run bys featuring A4s A3s A2s A1s B1s WDs & Britannias, there is also some pretty good amateur colour film footage shot around Brookmans Park during the early 1960s that is featured in the dvd Power of East Coast Steam available on a Transport Video Publishing dvd.

Mickey

[JASd17]

Mickey, I am slightly confused about your reference to Hawkshead signal box. It closed in 1926. Although I note some evidence of Up side signal posts there on a 1930s OS map. Nor does the map show a connection between the Up slow and Up fast lines at this point. Was this in fact a later development to improve track capacity - it is clearly there on the box diagram on the Marshmoor thread?

I accept the OS map may well be incorrect.

John

[Mickey]

To be honest John I wasn't to sure what date Hawkshead box closed and if it was still there in the late 1930s?.

Mickey

[JASd17]

The link below I think helps clarify some of the timescale.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docume ... rs1946.pdf

The Hawkshead Up turn out was a wartime change. It may have changed again after 1946 and before the changes at Potters Bar?

The colour light 'intermediate block signals' at Hawkshead were already there in 1939, controlled from Marshmoor. But I am not sure exactly when these were installed.

John

[robertcwp]

From the 1937-8 Winter carriage workings:

GN_1937-8_0708-ex-Leeds_m by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[Eightpot]

The link below I think helps clarify some of the timescale.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docume ... rs1946.pdf

The Hawkshead Up turn out was a wartime change. It may have changed again after 1946 and before the changes at Potters Bar?

The colour light 'intermediate block signals' at Hawkshead were already there in 1939, controlled from Marshmoor. But I am not sure exactly when these were installed.

John

From memory I believe that the Up Slow to Main cross-over was there until about the early 1960s.

[StevieG]

Hawkshead Up 'turn-out' was in fact worked by Marshmoor Box, protected by the same 'Intermediate Block' signals (not a strictly accurate title once points were involved), M4 (Slow) and M9 (Fast/Main); the continuing second Up line to Potters Bar becoming (as far as I recall reading somewhere), of "PF" status in BR Sectional Appendix terms (Absolute Block, but allowed to be used as 'Permissive' for 'freight' trains) - for a period there was the banner-type Calling-On signal below M4 for admitting trains to the section when already occupied (worked by Marshmoor's additional lever 'A') : I can't recall what I may have read about dates for these works but they would strongly suggest having been a wartime measure to increase capacity and flexibility: -
- The most distant points and signals worked from Potters Bar power signal box were those at 'Randalls' for the DS-DF 'turn-out' north of the station, and those outside the north end of PB tunnel during the few years' period when the quadrupling had been done through the station and southwards to that point, but not completed through the three tunnels and Hadley Wood, to Greenwood.

Re the referred-to photo (which I have not seen); TimeTables and 'correct' practices apart, and allowing for a possible 30-years' passage of time, I would just say that in the late 1960s, it was not unknown for some GN signalmen, including some who worked Hatfield No.1, if confident of causing no other delays or problem, to turn a local passenger train 'out' Fast line, in this case to run to at least Potters Bar, if catching up a little on lost time was thought possible, or even mischievously for a bit of variety.

[EddieBN]

I have an S & T drawing dated 27th June 1951 entitled " Proposed Widening of the Line at Potters Bar " It covers the line from just north of Potters Bar tunnel to just north of Brookmans Park station. These particular drawings interestingly still show only up and down lines between Potters Bar south to Greenwood box, branching out to four lines just south of the station. It shows signals at Hawkshead, IBH M4 up slow and IBH M9 up fast, also M5 points up slow to up fast. Just beyond the turnout it shows " spring points " in the up slow and also notes that the the trailing end of M5 points are also " spring points " Also noted against M4 signal is the wording " Letter 'C' to be displayed in one aspect " no doubt to be used for permissive block working. Incidentally , when I was at Marshmoor ('65/'66) this turnout had already been taken out as had the ladder crossing at Marshmoor box.

Eddie.