Third class seating in Gresley teak vestibule carriages

[gdb]

Looking through the LNER-CA gallery for interior photos of the BTK no. 3669 to Diagram 114 I pondered on the possibility that the seat shape and appearance might have changed between when the carriage was built and later life, for example at nationalisation.

The photo here:- https://www.flickr.com/photos/lnerca/8941621466/ shows what I take to be the original condition of the carriage - four aside seating is as described in LNER Standard Gresley Carriages (Harris, Mallard Books). Photographs of a Gresley carriage before restoration here:- http://www.gotopcs.net/graphics/10021/I4701.JPG show what looks like three aside seating with armrests, Harris notes that later builds of D114 - possibly those with welded underframes - had three aside seating from new.

So, the question.

How did the appearance (colour, material) and style (buttoning, headrest, armrest) of third class seating change for teak carriages between (say) 1930 and (say) 1950?

thank you, Graham

[Wavey]

4493 will probably give a more detailed answer but I can say that this style of seating was a1920s design and new vehicles from about 1932 would have had the later simpler bench seats with flip up arm rests. This coincided with the more modern approach of 1930s styling and use of rexine for interior wall coverings.
I believe that these seats were gradually replaced with the modern ones during the late 1930s and through to nationalisation.

[2392]

One thing Wavey didn't mention is that, as well as the various diagrams at the NRM from the various railway works. There are another set at Birmingham Library or perhaps University [not sure off hand which] from Metro Cammell who built rolling stock for the Railways of the world. What's more the Birmingham diagrams are more informative, in so much as they have an A-Z list of suppliers and their part numbers for the likes of material used for the seating.

With regards to there being no arm rests in 3669. Yes as Wavey stated that's how they were when 3669 was new. I have though heard a tale that the rests came about when a female member of the aristocrasy complained to the LNER Board that her maid, who had been traveling in 3rd class hadn't had any armrests. Which wasn't on, so could the company rectify that shortcoming........

The makers in this case being an outfit called Holdsworth [they merged with another supplier a few years ago and for the life of me I can't recall the new name ]. Anyway when LNERCA were restoring the BTO and TTOs in service on the Moors LNERCA contacted Holdsworths' and asked did they still make the material. There reply being, "probably, do you have a part number?" We did and the their reply was; "yes what colour do you want green or brown?" So since then LNERCA have trawled the Holdsworth catalogue for other pattens etc. Which in turn means LNERCA coaches look the part with the "original style/patten" material made to modern fireproof standard fabrics.

[gdb]

Thank you for your comments upon the photos / style of seating used for third class carriages "as-built".

I read the responses as saying that post circa mid-1930s the new builds had three a-side seating with intermediate armrests and that older construction would be "updated" during some future repair. In the photo of the SRPS coach the armrests are shown as lifted-up and with ribbon to draw downwards. When the armrest was in the lower position was there a filler, within the seat frame, to take the space vacated by the lowered armrest?

Although not mentioned in the responses, am I safe to assume that third class seats with armrests did not have buttoned material?

Considering Gresley carriages in the mid-1940s, would re-trimming of seats follow the appearance of Thompson new-build stock? In what colour for third class?

thank you, Graham

[2392]

I think so. The buttons being left out as an economy. Bear in mind the time period, what with the "Wall Street Crash" in 1929/30 and the ensuing worldwide economic crash. Which lead to the "Great Depression," the LNER being the most poverty strickened of the the Big Four. I don't think the "National [coalition] Government" of the day would have let any of the four actually go bankrupt, as, so many other businesses depended on them. Of course later in the '30s the Government made low cost loans available to the railways as a whole, to finance various capital projects like quadrupling the East Coast Main Line through the Vale of York. Withdrawing older engines and replacing them with fewer new machines including A4 4498/60007 Sir Nigel Gresley.

[Bill Bedford]

One thing Wavey didn't mention is that, as well as the various diagrams at the NRM from the various railway works. There are another set at Birmingham Library or perhaps University [not sure off hand which] from Metro Cammell who built rolling stock for the Railways of the world. What's more the Birmingham diagrams are more informative, in so much as they have an A-Z list of suppliers and their part numbers for the likes of material used for the seating.

Birmingham Library holds aperture cards of the Met Cam drawings, the originals are with the HMRS.